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I didn't realize this

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DWill

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I didn't realize this

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Call me dense if you want (I really don't mind), but I didn't realize the effect that polarization is having on public discussion (and on me) until I heard Dax Shepherd complain that we have only a left and a right, and whatever you say is likely to get you labeled as one or the other. The result is timidity in expressing things you're trying to work out in your mind. You don't want to hear, "Well, yeah, that's a common thing you hear said on the right," (or left). I wish this weren't so--but I'm glad Booktalk is less polarized than other places where strangers get together to talk.
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Mr. P

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Re: I didn't realize this

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I feel we are there unfortunately. Not everyone of course, but we have reached a societal tipping point. Where we end up is the question. I still seek out even-keeler in life. It's just becoming very hard. And I sometimes find myself having to become polarized just to fend off some folks. Had a intense battle today.

This is why I find myself back here after all the time I've been away. I want to maintain my centrist approach. It's just so hard these days.
When you refuse to learn, you become a disease.
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Brooks127
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Re: I didn't realize this

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I think people act differently offline. Case in point, one of my close friends is a well known activist whose had many online and court battles. When we get together and chat over coffee, none of it comes up. In fact, our talks are really refreshing. They ask me about my writing and I their artwork. We vent about life, laugh, and sometimes shed a few tears. It's really a unique relationship because we don't always agree yet remain really good friends.

In regards to social media. I'm thinking it might be the end of sites like Twitter. Facebook I'm not so sure about because it's walled up and less public.
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Mr. P

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Re: I didn't realize this

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Brooks127 wrote:I think people act differently offline. Case in point, one of my close friends is a well known activist whose had many online and court battles. When we get together and chat over coffee, none of it comes up. In fact, our talks are really refreshing. They ask me about my writing and I their artwork. We vent about life, laugh, and sometimes shed a few tears. It's really a unique relationship because we don't always agree yet remain really good friends.

In regards to social media. I'm thinking it might be the end of sites like Twitter. Facebook I'm not so sure about because it's walled up and less public.
There is truth in that. But I have had alot of heaters with co-workers (and the boss, where I did not hold back,..but did not get fired either) and others in real life. Some are family, which no longer speak to me (and that's fine with me) including my mother and father.

I do have a few I can disagree with in an intelligent manner. I will keep those relationships healthy. Because whether or not you agree with someone...free speech and constructive discourse have to be maintained at all costs in my opinion.

One thing I have been thinking alot about lately though...are there ANY topics, do you fine people think, that are pretty much debated out of usefulness? Like...can there be any argument for or discourse on promoting something like slavery? Is it ok to just shut out arguments of this type?
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Harry Marks
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Re: I didn't realize this

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Mr. P wrote:I do have a few I can disagree with in an intelligent manner. I will keep those relationships healthy. Because whether or not you agree with someone...free speech and constructive discourse have to be maintained at all costs in my opinion.

One thing I have been thinking alot about lately though...are there ANY topics, do you fine people think, that are pretty much debated out of usefulness? Like...can there be any argument for or discourse on promoting something like slavery? Is it ok to just shut out arguments of this type?
I'm with DWill in missing the ability to discuss things in depth that have a number of sides. Some of that is self-censorship - even with "Caste" I am reluctant to say things that activists might cancel me for, especially since my heart is very much on the left. But it is useful to follow a thought and see where it seems to be going, and have thoughtful people reflect on it as well.

There are topics worth contemplating about. Probably not slavery. Maybe reparations. I am reading some really insightful stuff about brain and mind, and it dovetails nicely with my somewhat idiosyncratic views on religion. Not quite ready to share it here, but I am confident that if I do, there will be little of the dismissive, obnoxious commentary that keeps me away from most forums (even, by its reputation, Reddit). Even on Facebook I run into comments about "majority minority" status coming, about climate denial, and about the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

(One of my favorites goes something like: "I've been meaning to do something for the homeless people in my city. I've been meaning to write to my Congressman about global warming. I've been meaning to take up meditation. I've been meaning to exercise. I guess I have a really meaningful life.")
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Mr. P

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I just used slavery as an example btw. The opinions of some folks I have respect for is that there should be NO topic that is taboo and all speech should be tolerated. Not accepted mind you, but not canceled either.

Sometimes I feel that there are some topics I just cannot discuss and do not want to discuss anymore. And I admit I can become quite dismissive,especially if the person defending and spouting about an ignorant position is an obviously (yes in my estimation) ignorant person.
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Brooks127
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Re: I didn't realize this

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Harry Marks wrote:...missing the ability to discuss things in depth that have a number of sides.
You're not a lone. I too feel like it's difficult to express myself on social media and in particularly mainstream social media. Message boards have a bit of a different feel to them. Personally, I find the slow pace of message board replies refreshing. Being able to step away and let others form well thought out replies is nice.

From what I'm seeing on another board I enjoy, there's a lot of people out there searching for an understanding community or at least one they can learn from.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't like seeing more people returning to the simpler Internet experience. I miss the 1990s and early 2000 DIY spirit I felt in the artistic community. I know it continues to exist, but the gains are often overshadowed.
Mr. P wrote:Because whether or not you agree with someone...free speech and constructive discourse have to be maintained at all costs in my opinion.
Norman Rockwell's famous painting, Freedom of Speech," comes to mine. It's the one with the guy standing in the town meeting voicing the unpopular opinion. I do believe in order for a free society to exist everyone needs the right to speak freely and without fear in doing so. I disagree with things persons in my daily life agree with, yet I allow them to have those beliefs because it's what makes them who they are and if denied the chance to speak freely, society misses opportunities to address underlying issues that might actually be harming society’s well-being and emotional growth.

To me, this is an interesting topic from not just a free speech perspective but psychological one. Case in point, say you meet someone whose interested in you because of your music, art, writing, etc. You become friends and perhaps romantically involved. Then, one day, during casual conversation, you say something they don't agree with. A debate begins. You think nothing of it, yet it begins to rage and soon they're asking why you feel that way. They soon want to change you and make them like themselves. You care about them, don't want to lose their friendship or love, but at the same time wish they realized you're still the same person they met and grew attached to. The only thing different is you revealed a bit about how you think, but how you think is what made you the person they enjoy being with.
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