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The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper 
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Robert Tulip wrote:
DWill wrote:
Robert, you're to be commended for bringing a case against your own theory. I mean that. I simply don't see how there is much room, after what you've said, to still think that LD had any intention of coding the stars of the ecliptic into his painting.


No way, it is absolutely not a case against my theory. You DWill earlier expressed an understandable but invalid conflation between the zodiac and astrology. Leonardo's use of the zodiac here involves no astrology. It is just astronomy, just stars, just observation of the path of the sun against the galaxy, 100% empirical description. And that is all that I am claiming is in The Last Supper. No astrological symbolism or themes whatsoever. Leonardo was a pure empiricist, and he encoded the observation of the empirical star path of the sun in his painting in the exact same order from one to twelve that we still see in the night sky.

In my opening post I quoted an astrologer who had previously argued for correlation between the apostles and the signs. I included that just to acknowledge that this general theme of seeing the zodiac signs from right to left had been noticed before. But when you read the quote, that astrologer barely mentions stars, and is just speculating like a rooster, in Leonardo's rather memorable phrase. By contrast my claims here are 100% empirical with no speculative content as far as astrology is concerned. That is not to invalidate all such speculation, but rather to say that is not my concern in this argument.

I admit Robert that my position is taken out of complete ignorance of the field you know so much about. All that leaves me is an intuition about appropriateness. I think that such intuitions have a place in argument, though. Would you agree? One doesn't have to believe that Leonardo was orthodox in religion (not much evidence of that, actually) to think that his artistic purpose was in line with the common understanding of this common Bible scene, the last supper. He was being paid to paint this scene that many had painted before, and what appears to have been his inspiration? Critics think it was to show Jesus and the disciples as fully human, unlike the previous stylized, reverential portraits. You can see LD's cleverness in choosing a particular moment to depict, when Jesus says one of his devoted followers will betray him. It gives him scope to apply what he's learned about drawing the human figure. He delivers the goods to his patron, eventually, after procrastinating the completion. Now, there's no way to prove that he didn't have some ulterior purpose such as you suggest, to convey to a different audience a more esoteric understanding of what the scene is about. That LD did split his purpose in this way seems to me unlikely, and that's all I'm saying. It's impossible to prove one way or the other. It's a judgment call.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
I hope you good folks will excuse my being a little blunt but I think you're quite badly misrepresenting da Vinci's chacter and intent.

He was an enviable polymath and his interests wide-ranging, but thus far I've seen no evidence that he himself said any of what's being attributed to him. To be even blunter, and I hope you'll take this in the gentle spriti in which it's intended, I'm not seeing much of your own thinking either, unless of course you are the authors of the numerous books and videos you're posting.

You may not respect what I say, but perhaps you'll listen to the maestro's own words: "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory".



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Squelch wrote:
I hope you good folks will excuse my being a little blunt but I think you're quite badly misrepresenting da Vinci's chacter and intent. He was an enviable polymath and his interests wide-ranging, but thus far I've seen no evidence that he himself said any of what's being attributed to him. To be even blunter, and I hope you'll take this in the gentle spriti in which it's intended, I'm not seeing much of your own thinking either, unless of course you are the authors of the numerous books and videos you're posting. You may not respect what I say, but perhaps you'll listen to the maestro's own words: "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory".

Squelch, your comment makes no sense, and I'm sorry I find it hard to "take this in the gentle spriti [sic] in which it's intended." I have not posted any videos, and any quotes have been fully cited. The images I have posted have been my own work, drawing from existing cited sources. What do you think has been attributed to da Vinci that he did not say? Where is the "appeal to authority"? Please be specific. Generalised slurs such as your comments here are useless, casting aspersions with no substantive content. It is in the same vein as your earlier false sniping assertion that I was not using da Vinci's Last Supper. As to "badly misrepresenting da Vinci's chacter [sic] and intent", you should not make such a sweeping allegation unless you back it up with reason and evidence. Otherwise you run the risk of being perceived as a troll with a concealed agenda. I would prefer to assume you have just not read the thread very carefully.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
I have not posted any videos, and any quotes have been fully cited.


I'm sorry, my post was directed at several contributers and not just you, which is why I address it to "you good folks".

Quote:
What do you think has been attributed to da Vinci that he did not say?


The insertion of zodiac symbols in his painting. I see the mass of quotes and videos from a plethora of sources and they're excellent and enjoyable. But I'm not seeing anything at all from the maestro himself. It's possible that he commented at length on this but I confess I haven't seen anything to support that. Have you?

Quote:
It is in the same vein as your earlier false sniping assertion that I was not using da Vinci's Last Supper.


I'm afraid that assertion was entirely correct: the image in your original post is not da Vinci's last supper, it's a rather crude reproduction.

I apologise if any of this has offended you. I'm only interested in constructive discussion; if you would prefer that I didn't express a dissenting opinion, please let me know and I'll leave you well alone.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
Robert wrote:

Forgive my gentle laughter at you Penelope. I simply assumed you were reading the thread. Or maybe what I write looks at first glance like such a dense and impenetrable thicket that even Prince Charming would struggle to hack through to find Sleeping Beauty, and I will remain invisible for another hundred years. I do try to write simply, but this material involves deep challenges to philosophical assumptions. The common derision of The Da Vinci Code is a case in point. I thought it was a superb book, following Leonardo's genius in embedding high secrets in a potboiler, rather like the New Testament in that regard in fact.


I went to bed in quite a huff with you Robert. But when I woke up this morning I thought I could understand why you were a little bit miffed that I hadn't quoted you about the orbit of venus etc.

The thing is I have been very interested in Fibonacci Mathematics for about 10 or 12 years, not being of a scientific or mathematical mindset. I was thrilled when I read Dan Brown's books and Fibonacci was mentioned because I thought I was in a minority in finding it all exciting. When I read about the orbit of Venus, forming a star shape, I was gobsmacked and so of course I Googled it and verified what Dan Brown had written.

I do try to read your posts Robert, but it is the esoteric use of language I have a problem with and you are bound to use that as they are common terms to you. I could do with a lexicon of familiar terms used by the astrophysicist. :wink:


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
No, seriously, is there any evidence at all that Leonardo was encoding zodiac symbolism into his paintings?

I had asked this earlier, but didn't see a response. I skim through a lot of the esoteric stuff myself. There's a great deal of information in this thread about zodiacs and planet movements but really this has to be the starting point of a serious query to the idea that there is zodiac symbolism encoded into Leonardo's painting. I see a lot of conjecture and a lot of wishful thinking, but is there any actual evidence? Was Leonardo inclined towards, or was even aware of, a zodiacal interpretation of Christianity. If not—if this is indeed all pure conjecture—than how can anyone take it seriously?


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
That's true Geo. As far as my intuition goes - knowing about how wide spread zodiac references were in the ancient world - I tend to think Robert may be on to something. I say 'may' because you're right, the hard evidence is where?

The correspondence between the zodiac and the disciples is interesting but the thing about it is that the motif of the 12 is an old astrotheological motif, pre-Christian and is present in Judaism and Christianity for symbolic reasons. So if anyone portrays the 12 disciples in art or whatever, they likewise render this motif of the 12 in the process whether or not they understand that the 12 symbolize the hours of day and night and the constellations around the sun's ecliptic path. He may not have known about that at all when he painted The Last Supper.

But I tend to think that he probably did know about it. It's isn't anything all too shocking either. There are churches with zodiacs on the walls or floors. The 12 disciples have been rendered as the 12 signs of the zodiac in ART works and this isn't anything new or strange to be honest. The Venerable Bead and his association of the 12 signs with the 12 disciples comes to mind. The church officials themselves should have been able to readily see such a correspondence because after all, they were directing the building of all of these churches in Europe that make use of the imagery of cross of the zodiac, the cardinal directions, and everything else that we find. I find it difficult to maintain the idea that LD would have been ignorant to all of this European art and architecture surrounding his world. But that still isn't anything in the way of hard evidence to prove that he utilized that knowledge in his painting. It's just a gut feeling about the situation.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
I can take you guys at your word that Christianity at times was, by some, viewed as symbolic of stellar and planetary movements, but I seriously doubt this was ever the primary message of Christianity. I don't always avail myself of the many videos and links you guys post. I actually own a copy of Who Was Jesus? by Murdoch, but I haven't taken time to read the book yet. That churches have zodiacs may have only be an attempt to appeal to those members who were coming from more Pagan persuasions, opening their collective arms to accommodate other perspectives and beliefs.

I can appreciate your attempts to find relevance in Christianity by "discovering" this hidden message. Christianity seems to be quickly losing relevance in modern times. This probably has a lot to do with its supernatural underpinnings that are increasingly hard to believe. I'd like to think there is some paradigmatic seismic shift on the way that will take people back to a more naturalistic mode of existence. And all this astrotheological stuff is cool like tarot cards are cool, but is there one smidgeon of evidence that shows that events on earth are connected to the positions of certain clusters of stars that happen to be aligned with the ecliptic?

I can't help but think of Wright's The Evolution of God in relation to this conscious (or is it unconscious) attempt to reinterpret ancient scriptures to make it more relevant, more meaningful. There is built-in appeal to ancient creeds, secret messages, and conspiracies. And people like to find meaning in all kinds of stuff. For better or worse, Christianity has had virile appeal for thousands of years. But this new (or old) zodiacal reinterpretation seems so esoteric to me that I can't imagine it taking root on any kind of meaningful scale. I can't see us at this point in time replacing the traditional Christian message with one steeped in zodiacal intrigue.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
I think the healthiest thing for us to do as members of the human race is to recognize the humanity of each of us and how best we can care for ourselves and each other. To reach this, in my opinion, every sort of supernatural belief must be discarded.

I know astrotheology is based on the natural rhythms of the seasons and stars etc. But it seems to me that such study time and investigation would be more profitably spent in studying those sciences; astronomy, geology, oceanography, medicine etc. etc. that can
productively help ourselves and others.

We need to reach out to each other, not to some other belief system to validate and support our actions. We do not need a God to teach us about love. It is a natural state of being. We don't need new studies to divide us, we need actions to support and align us.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
Geo wrote:

. I can't see us at this point in time replacing the traditional Christian message with one steeped in zodiacal intrigue.


People 'want' to believe in God....they 'want' to believe that there is something bigger than us. Some pattern, some meaning.

So, you see, when we see, geometric patterns in the orbits of the planets, we feel that perhaps 'God' was the original architect...

I should say, Some people...want to believe...and some people don't, it seems.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Penelope wrote:
Quote:
Geo wrote:

. I can't see us at this point in time replacing the traditional Christian message with one steeped in zodiacal intrigue.


People 'want' to believe in God....they 'want' to believe that there is something bigger than us. Some pattern, some meaning.

So, you see, when we see, geometric patterns in the orbits of the planets, we feel that perhaps 'God' was the original architect...

I should say, Some people...want to believe...and some people don't, it seems.


Yes, thanks for pointing that out, Penelope. It's very true that people want to believe in God and people look for meaning in patterns. And if a zodiacal interpretation of Christianity would satisfy that inner yearning, I would be very happy indeed because, as Robert has emphasized many times, astrotheism embraces an empirical worldview. As I said, too, it's cool (like tarot cards are cool. I just don't think it's going to catch on. Indeed this seems like a last ditch effort to hold on to Christianity, but I've not sure why we're even trying. Christianity has an awful lot of baggage with it and, in my opinion, it's going to just get in the way of a new paradigmatic spirituality that really has to be empirically-based in my view.

Besides, it's not Christianity we are yearning towards, its oneness with the universe, one with nature. Efforts to put Christianity into that pantheistic mix seems doomed to fail.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
lady of shallot wrote:
I think the healthiest thing for us to do as members of the human race is to recognize the humanity of each of us and how best we can care for ourselves and each other. To reach this, in my opinion, every sort of supernatural belief must be discarded.

I know astrotheology is based on the natural rhythms of the seasons and stars etc. But it seems to me that such study time and investigation would be more profitably spent in studying those sciences; astronomy, geology, oceanography, medicine etc. etc. that can
productively help ourselves and others.

We need to reach out to each other, not to some other belief system to validate and support our actions. We do not need a God to teach us about love. It is a natural state of being. We don't need new studies to divide us, we need actions to support and align us.


Thanks for this post, by the way. This is very well stated.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
Geo wrote:

Besides, it's not Christianity we are yearning towards, its oneness with the universe, one with nature. Efforts to put Christianity into that pantheistic mix seems doomed to fail.
_________________



I definitely was not implying Christianity. I was only suggesting that people might want there to be a God....some sort of order...reason behind the seeming chaos.

And I do understand that the yearning doesn't make it true.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Thanks Geo, I actually posted on Robert's Natural Religion thread expressing similar views and concerns about using astrotheology as a way of bringing back the old Gnostic roots. That's what this all boils down to by the way. It's in the bible because these were Gnostic astrotheological concepts which filtered into orthodox times. Robert and I are approaching astrotheology from two different perspectives. I'm only interested in the scholastic end of it in terms of how it pertains to comparative religion and mythology studies. I have no religious intent.

I'm pantheistic on the atheist side of the spectrum, as you know, and I agree that while some pantheistic concepts involved with early Gnosticism can be picked out of certain Christian ideas now, it seems ill logical to assume that Christianity could ever be reformed around these tid bits into something fully pantheistic. Robert has a certain calling for sure and I believe that he really believes in these reformation ideas that he's speaking about. They're interesting and I understand most of what he's saying because he's using language and terminology that I'm familiar with from studying on mythology and religion. Robert and I have debated whether or not it's logical to assume that the religious institutions will ever kick off the old supernaturalism and move forward. And if so, then move forward to what? If it's to full on modern pantheism then I can tell you all right now that we (modern pantheists - Scientific / Natural Pantheists) do not fancy organized religion at all! Come join Pantheist.net and get a feel for what goes around on our private forums. It's just about people feeling a deep connection to nature and a strong sense of unity with natural cosmos, free and clear of any type of institutionalized anything. So the reformation of Christianity thing is very complicated and I have a hard time seeing how it could ever happen myself. But if some people want to do it I don't really have a problem with that either. If there were a ton of Tulips calling themselves Christian but taking deeper unified pantheistic world views it would certainly lessen the tension between Christians and Atheists tremendously. It's like a stepping stone towards full on freethought free and clear of the need for any institutionalized religion.

I came across the astrotheology in myth before understanding the mythicism argument in full. I came across this level while going over Campbell's four primary functions of myth. That's when I began to see how much astral symbolism is worked into the mythologies and how Judaism and Christianity borrowed a lot of concepts from just that. The older high culture mythologies were worked into the newer budding religions as they popped up over time. Later I learned about some more of the depth to it all when confronting the mythicist arguments. So my interest has always been one of some guy who was raised in fundamentalist literalism seeking to understand just what in hell all of this religious stuff actually is at the bottom. In the process I came across all of these allegories and crossed paths with Tulip along the way.

What I've discovered is that these supernatural stories of myth and religion are usually allegorical and deal with the movement of the heavens as observed from earth. It's just a large part of how they are arranged. The ancient mystics and astronomer priests considered the whole thing as a sacred science. When you remove the surface layer of the supernatural stories you're then looking at references to natural things like the sun, moon, planets, stars, elements etc stripped down to bare. That's what Tulip's calling attention to all the time with these appeals to Natural Religion. But then down deeper yet, the ancients were using the symbolism of natural things like the sun as a way of expressing spiritual teachings about the material universe as the reflection of an 'inner spiritual realm', a supernatural type of realm that supports the universe. So the supernaturalism goes down deeper yet despite all of the references to natural things like the sun or whatever else. They only revered natural phenomenon in that it reflected an 'inner spiritual reality' in their minds.

We have no purely natural religion to point at in antiquity to my knowledge, certainly not early Christian Gnosticism. It's important in my view to confess that. Other wise people could get the wrong impression. Removing supernatural belief entirely from the mythos is a new thing, not some ancient root foundation that we should be getting back to. And when removing the supernaturalism entirely, and that means removing all of the lore about the material universe as a reflection of deeper spiritual causes from some spiritual realm, what's left for religionists to cling to?

Geo wrote:
And all this astrotheological stuff is cool like tarot cards are cool, but is there one smidgeon of evidence that shows that events on earth are connected to the positions of certain clusters of stars that happen to be aligned with the ecliptic?


Robert is not talking about astrology in the sense that distant stars effect life on earth however, just to clarify. That's one correction that needs to be aired out. He's talking about the earth wobbling on it's axis as it orbits the sun and how there are times of greater and lesser solar light reaching the earth which is ingrained into the DNA of all life on the planet because of our evolving during these long cycles. Life has had to evolve according to these periods of greater and lesser solar light as the earth wobbles. When the back ground stars at the vernal equinox sunrise are of the Pisces-Virgo axis, the current age for instance, that's because the earth is at that tilt during it's wobble as it orbits the sun. It's at one point of receiving a certain amount of light due to it's angle towards the sun. The ecliptic constellations simply mark out that particular time period during the earth's wobble, that's it. It has to do with the earth itself and the solar light that the earth is receiving more so than any effect from these distant stars. No spooky action at a distance in an astrology sense. Robert's actually looking at a Natural Religious view which is very Gaia and Pantheistic oriented to be quite honest.

But of course that's not necessarily how the ancients were seeing it. This is like a newer level in the evolution of religious belief, the evolution of God as it were. Trying to ditch the supernaturalism is an interesting edition to this evolution for sure. And from what I understand Robert's correct in that his own personal views are completely natural. Where the problem lies is when he makes the same claim for ancient Gnostics or LD or whoever. That's a much more difficult claim to make and many problems begin to arise when he makes these type of claims. Although he could well be right about LD alluding to the zodiac in The Last Supper. But of course that alone doesn't suggest LD was trying to preach Natural Religion in the way that Robert is right now, it just seems to suggest that LD was learned enough to understand that the church makes use of astrotheological symbolism. I guess that Robert may feel that finding support for his Natural Religion reformation of Christianity through popular historic figures in the past could lend some aspect of validity to the reformation ideas. But I have advised against it. I think he'd have more luck calling it all a new edition to many old religious beliefs and going from there. Then he wouldn't run into the sort of problems that he's run into here on this thread, for instance.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
geo wrote:
is there any evidence at all that Leonardo was encoding zodiac symbolism into his paintings?

At one level this question is simple, and the answer is yes. The evidence is that if we look at the stick figures of the zodiac constellations and compare them to the Last Supper, they match quite precisely to the twelve apostles in the same order as the heads appear. All twelve match, in the right order, starting from the first sign of spring and ending with the last sign of winter as per tradition, indicating this is deliberate by Leonardo and no accident or fantasy. As well, the twelve heads are grouped into four groups of three, and each group exactly matches the corresponding season, again from right to left, spring, summer, autumn, winter. This matching is far more precise and simple than other previously claimed codes, such as John (Libra) matching to Mary Magdalene, the coded M, the claim that the second apostle (Taurus) is Leonardo himself, and similar claims about his paintings the Mona Lisa and the Adoration of the Magi. I do not know why this stellar correlation has not been seen before, except perhaps that the chasm between Christianity and astrology seems so great that it never occurred to anyone to look for this stellar code.

At a more complex level, we start to delve into the cultural context and meaning. Several of the popes of Leonardo's day were noted astrology and Egyptology buffs, but this was kept a secret. Florence was home of the Renaissance, and Leonardo is the epitome of the Renaissance man. A big part of the Renaissance, as a revival of classical civilization after the Dark Ages, was the rediscovery of texts such as the Corpus Hermeticum, which claimed to explain Egyptian religion. Hermes, a.k.a. Mercury, is the messenger of the Gods in Greco-Roman myth. Hermeticism, allied to Gnosticism, is the idea that we can find a natural connection to divinity, that we can interpret nature to find a cosmic meaning. Noted Hermeticist Pico della Mirandola wrote the famous Oration on the Dignity of Man in 1486, a text which has been called the "Manifesto of the Renaissance” and must have been very familiar to Leonardo as a Florentine contemporary. Please read the wiki page on Pico if you want to see why Leonardo kept any esoteric interests secret.

Hermeticism was viewed with suspicion by the church, partly because of its messages of equality between the sexes and rejection of the superstition of original sin. These enlightened views are allied with traditions such as the Knights Templar, the Rosicrucians, the Holy Grail and Freemasonry, seen in the extraordinary imagery of holy sites such as Chartres Cathedral and Rosslyn Chapel.

Leonardo, great polymath that he was, was certainly aware of these cultural currents. However, his resolutely scientific outlook put his focus squarely on what can be seen and proved. The association between hermeticism and magic would, in my view, have made him suspicious of magical trends.

So why would he have put the zodiac in the Last Supper? Essentially, the zodiac defines the structure of terrestrial time, the 'hands of the clock' that mark the hours and the months in the movement of the sky. From a geocentric (ie human) outlook, we exist within natural cycles of the apparent movement of the sun. These cycles are marked by the equal periods of the signs within the seasons.

The Last Supper is overtly about the defining moment of salvation and betrayal for Christianity, when Jesus institutes the rite of communion and predicts he will be betrayed. Who the betrayer may have been is the subject of another great irony in the Last Supper, with the head of Judas placed precisely in front of the heart of Peter. Too, the Christian vision of salvation is subtly undermined by the placement of Peter’s left hand in front of John’s neck, perhaps indicating the corrupt desire of the church to slit the throat of anyone who sees a deeper meaning.

If we want to see the Last Supper as presenting a natural vision of salvation, what greater vision could there be than to embed the structure of planetary time within it?

I earlier mentioned Leonardo's comment that "The earth is not in the centre of the Sun's orbit nor at the centre of the universe, but in the centre of its companion elements, and united with them." (858) He also says "The sun does not move". (886) These comments are heliocentric, and were written by Leonardo in his Notebooks half a century before the heliocentric theory of Copernicus became known. I want to focus though on the mysterious "companion elements" that the earth is "united with". Leonardo makes mention of water as one of the "four elements" (931), with the other three being fire, earth and air. We are of course used to rejecting this framework as made obsolete by physics, but that is to ignore the basically cyclic and ordered vision it presents of space and time. Spatially, earth in the centre is surrounded in order by water (ocean), air (atmosphere) and fire (stars). Temporally, these four elements also traditionally mark the annual cycle of the months and of the seasons in the symbolism of the zodiac. So Leonardo is saying that the earth is united with the zodiac, an idea that reflects the Hermetic theme ‘as above so below’. Leonardo has just one cryptic mention of “Hermes the philosopher” (1425) in his Notebooks, but this intriguing mention of a Greek God as a philosopher is entirely Hermetic.

Why Leonardo would have wanted to keep all this secret is actually rather obvious, considering the public hostility to such material. The Rosicrucians, the order of the rosy cross, styled themselves as invisible. Their forebears the Templars gave the name to black Friday, when the Pope secretly tried to kill them all on Friday the 13th 1307.

The defining motif in the Last Supper is the placement of Christ as the sun at the centre of the zodiac. Just as a sphere can be touched by precisely twelve equally sized spheres, and just as carbon, the atom of life, has twelve particles in its nucleus, our solar system contains natural multiples of twelve. The rough relation between the periods of the moon, the earth and Jupiter embed the number twelve. The practical utility of twelve is shown in the clock, with its equal divisions in two, three, four and six. If we see the sun as having twelve faces, one for each month, by this allegory Christ unites the twelve into an eternal unity.

Gnostic tradition saw the divine in nature. Suppression of such ideas as heresy meant they could not be spoken openly in Leonardo’s day. Yet, if Leonardo was sympathetic to such thinking of Hermes the philosopher, what better way to express it than in a painting that seems to validate Christian dogma while actually pointing to a higher truth?



Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.



The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
geo
Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:23 am
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