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The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper 
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Leonardo on Astrology

In his Notebooks, Leonardo does not discuss astrology except for two disparaging comments referenced from the index. In a section collected under the title Prophecies, he says
Quote:
“all the astrologers will be castrated, that is the cockerels.”
This brief comment illustrates his disdain for the Nostradamus style of thinking, of speculation ungrounded in observation. A cockerel (rooster) makes noise without meaning.

This theme is expanded in a longer commentary on painting, available in full at http://people.virginia.edu/~jdk3t/LeonardosParagone.htm:
Quote:
“As soon as the poet ceases to represent in words what exists in nature, he in fact ceases to resemble the painter; for if the poet, leaving such representation, proceeds to describe the flowery and flattering speech of the figure, which he wishes to make the speaker, he then is an orator and no longer a poet nor a painter. And if he speaks of the heavens he becomes an astrologer, and philosopher; and a theologian, if he discourses of nature or God. But, if he restricts himself to the description of objects, he would enter the lists against the painter, if with words he could satisfy the eye as the painter does.”


Leonardo was one of the first and greatest modernists, focussing precisely on what can be seen and describing it exactly. His anatomical drawings are celebrated for this exactitude of description. This contempt for astrology, philosophy and theology as failing to represent nature proved a prescient inspiration for modern enlightened empirical thinking.

So, applied to The Last Supper, these comments indicate that the embedding of the stars of the ecliptic is entirely empirical in intent, that the story of Christ reflects the natural story of the cycle of the year. His secret contempt for the superstition of the church emerges in the placement of the head of Judas in front of the heart of Peter, suggesting that Judas, the grasping thief who denied Christ, was the real inspiration for peter, first legendary pope of the Roman church, the sword-wielding fool who denied Christ but sought to exploit the messiah as the basis of institutional propaganda.



Last edited by Robert Tulip on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Robert, you're to be commended for bringing a case against your own theory. I mean that. I simply don't see how there is much room, after what you've said, to still think that LD had any intention of coding the stars of the ecliptic into his painting.



Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:28 am
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Hey guys. This one's new to me too. But one main point here is that regardless of whether or not LD practiced or enjoyed astrology is completely beside the point.

The deeper question is whether LD - as a learned man - knew and understood the history of Judaism and Christianity, the history that reveals that the 12 tribes were modeled around the 12 hours of night and day and the 12 signs of the ecliptic path of the sun - as above so below. The second function of myth is the cosmological function and many ancient societies modeled their social structuring based on mimicking the heavens above down below on the earth. And the 12 disciples are numbered as such in order to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, firmly keeping with this ancient tradition of as above so below.

If LD was learned at all in these matters - if so much as knew of Josephus and Philo's writings on this specific issue - then his including the 12 signs of the zodiac as the 12 disciples is simply a display of his knowledge about the underlying foundations of church dogma which are based in astrological symbolism pertaining to the zodiac, or simply "Mazzaroth" as described in the book of Job. The zodiac given in reverse order of the annual signs simply renders the precession of the equinoxes, so LD could have meant to display his knowledge about how the Christian mythos displays precession allegory all over the place as well. And he could have hated astrology and yet painted like this in order to take a shot at two things he disliked - the church and it's astrological symbolism which is ingrained into it's mythos. We should probably try to consider every angle when contemplating this possibility.


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Last edited by tat tvam asi on Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
DWill wrote:
Robert, you're to be commended for bringing a case against your own theory. I mean that. I simply don't see how there is much room, after what you've said, to still think that LD had any intention of coding the stars of the ecliptic into his painting.


No way, it is absolutely not a case against my theory. You DWill earlier expressed an understandable but invalid conflation between the zodiac and astrology. Leonardo's use of the zodiac here involves no astrology. It is just astronomy, just stars, just observation of the path of the sun against the galaxy, 100% empirical description. And that is all that I am claiming is in The Last Supper. No astrological symbolism or themes whatsoever. Leonardo was a pure empiricist, and he encoded the observation of the empirical star path of the sun in his painting in the exact same order from one to twelve that we still see in the night sky.

In my opening post I quoted an astrologer who had previously argued for correlation between the apostles and the signs. I included that just to acknowledge that this general theme of seeing the zodiac signs from right to left had been noticed before. But when you read the quote, that astrologer barely mentions stars, and is just speculating like a rooster, in Leonardo's rather memorable phrase. By contrast my claims here are 100% empirical with no speculative content as far as astrology is concerned. That is not to invalidate all such speculation, but rather to say that is not my concern in this argument.

There is however a clear religious symbolism, a critique of the church, in the congruence with the old belief that Jesus and the apostles are allegories for the sun and the signs. It is as though Leonardo is saying that the superstition of Christianity is redundant, but what is real is the annual passage of the sun through the zodiac. It is a natural approach that matches completely with his acute observation in other fields such as anatomy, and with his methods of concealing allegories, of which more anon. Putting the head of Judas in front of the heart of Peter certainly looks like a critique of the church.

Now we have the strange situation that some people say 'yes it is obvious why did I not see it before', and others say they can't see it after trying. Maybe the inability to see it is a mental blockage or a lack of familiarity with the constellations, but the correlations are very obvious, as I have explained here in several different ways.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
The orbits of the planets are superbly mathematical. I find that a bit eerie in itself.

I know that Venus traces a pentagram? And Jupiter or Mercury, one of the two, traces a completely geometric shape coming into line every 28 years.

It is astronomy.....but it traces such accurate geometric shapes that it feels like astrology, if you know what I mean.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Penelope,

Can you elaborate on the geometric orbits?

Orbits are eliptical.

Take a look at this thread where we have been having fun with orbits. (yes. i said fun. *push up horn-rimmed glasses*)

planetary-orbit-simulator-well-there-goes-productivity-t8576.html

of particular interest might be this link

http://www.wimp.com/earthyear/

which is a nice illustration of what our orbit actually looks like. All orbiting objects necessarily share similar orbits as their mass pulls against the sun, as well as all the other objects it pulls the center of the orbit slightly out of center, creating an elipse.

Objects on different trajectories are either ejected from the solar system, or collide with one of the stable orbits.

Sorry Robert, slightly off-topic here.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Robert Tulip wrote:
Leonardo's use of the zodiac here involves no astrology. It is just astronomy, just stars, just observation of the path of the sun against the galaxy, 100% empirical description.


I get the difference between the zodiac and astrology. But is there any evidence at all that Leonardo was encoding zodiac symbolism into his paintings?


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
johnson wrote:

Penelope,

Can you elaborate on the geometric orbits?

Orbits are eliptical.



As Venus orbits the Sun, it would follow an elliptical orbit, but only from the point of view of the Sun. Because Earth also orbits the Sun, the two motions are combined, giving a different shape.

The orbits of Venus and Earth are almost a perfect 13:8 resonance, meaning that Venus does 13 orbits for every 8 of Earth. 13:8 is a succession in the Fibonacci Sequence, and the previous one is 8:5. Because of the time it takes for Earth to complete this orbit (8 years), Venus has moved in a sufficient manner to trace a pentagram with curved sides.

From the point of view from Earth, every planet has an irregular orbit, because we are coupling the motion of Earth to the motion of the other planet. Venus, due to its distance, has the most pronounced irregularity, and due to the very close resonance orbit, it traces an almost perfect geometrical shape. It's pure coincidence.
Source(s):
See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en… for an image of the way the shape comes about.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
"So, applied to The Last Supper, these comments indicate that the embedding of the stars of the ecliptic is entirely empirical in intent, that the story of Christ reflects the natural story of the cycle of the year."

Dwill, I read Robert's sentence above to SUPPORT his theory of the embedded stars in the painting. He is only negating Leonardo's interest in Astrology, not astronomy



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
gotcha.

Thanks, Penelope.


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Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?

Confidence being an expectation built on past experience, evidence and extrapolation to the future. Faith being an expectation held in defiance of past experience and evidence.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
johnson wrote:

gotcha.

Thanks, Penelope.


johnson, that reply was so bloody beautiful....it belongs on the poetry thread.


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
johnson1010 wrote:
Penelope,
Can you elaborate on the geometric orbits?
Orbits are eliptical.
Take a look at this thread where we have been having fun with orbits. (yes. i said fun. *push up horn-rimmed glasses*)
planetary-orbit-simulator-well-there-goes-productivity-t8576.html
of particular interest might be this link
http://www.wimp.com/earthyear/
which is a nice illustration of what our orbit actually looks like. All orbiting objects necessarily share similar orbits as their mass pulls against the sun, as well as all the other objects it pulls the center of the orbit slightly out of center, creating an elipse.
Objects on different trajectories are either ejected from the solar system, or collide with one of the stable orbits.
Sorry Robert, slightly off-topic here.

The geometry of the relation between Earth and Venus is actually entirely on topic and I had already raised it myself, but naughty Penelope neglected to quote.

The Venus Pentagram is used by Dan Brown as the key to his Da Vinci Code. I first raised it back in 2007 (on my grandmother's 99th birthday) at the bad astronomy forum where I said

Quote:
The Earth Venus conjunction features interestingly in The Da Vinci Code. Because 13 Venus years are almost precisely equal to 8 Earth years, there are 13/5 = 2.6 Venus years for each 8/5 = 1.6 earth years. The common "0.6" in the two cycles means that when Venus has orbited 2.6 times, the Earth has orbited 1.6 times, so they line up exactly again with the sun. The five inferior or superior conjunctions are therefore at 1.6, 3.2, 4.8, 6.4 and 8 earth years = 2.6, 5.2, 7.8, 10.4 and 13 Venus years. For example, the inferior conjunction of Earth and Venus on 18 August 2007 was the fifth such event since the same date in 1999. These five points form a perfect pentagram in space, the divine shape of Pythagorean lore and the Vitruvian Man by Leonardo, as discussed by Dan Brown. There is reportedly a 0.0789 day slippage of this pentagram every 584 days.

The inferior conjunction of Venus occurs every 583.93 days as Venus passes between the Earth and the Sun. Most recent was 18 August 2007. The period for every fifth event is eight years minus 2.4 days, so it will happen on 16 August 2015. This regular period, due to the 13/8 relation between the orbits of Venus and Earth, also applies to the superior conjunction (Venus behind Sun), the dates of change to forward and retrograde motion, and the dates when Venus is at maximum apparent angle of 45-47 degrees each side of the sun. Venus was recently at maximum angle on 9 June 2007 and went retrograde on 30 July. In eight years, it will reach these positions on 7 June 2015 and 27 July 2015 respectively, 2.4 days before the corresponding days this year.

For the ancients, the date when Venus as evening or morning star changed direction could have been a main temporal marker, observed 2.4 days earlier against the zodiac stars every eight years. I would be interested in any information on this - did the ancients monitor the apparent 2.4 day precession of the position of Venus each eight years? This movement is certainly much easier to observe than the precession of the zodiac recorded by Hipparchus in the second century BCE.

The ten points of the apparent change of direction of Venus (five each for the evening and morning stars) form two pentagons, each evenly spaced around the zodiac. These pentagons precess with an orbital period of about 1217.5 years, as do the inferior and superior conjunctions. The Pythagorean School of ancient Greece used the pentagon as its symbol, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Pythagoreans. They had a strong interest in the mathematics of celestial observation, and had cultural affinity to the themes of beauty and love symbolized by Venus/Aphrodite. For these reasons, I imagine it is likely the Pythagoreans monitored this nearly exact eight year cycle. Would their secrecy mean we will never know?

Fifty years of Venus Dates

Inferior Conjunction; 10/11/1970; 18/6/1972; 24/1/1974; 28/8/1975; 6/4/1977; 8/11/1978; 15/6/1980; 21/1/1982; 25/8/1983; 4/4/1985;
5/11/1986; 13/6/1988; 19/1/1990; 23/8/1991; 2/4/1993; 3/11/1994;
11/6/1996; 17/1/1998; 20/8/1999; 30/3/2001; 31/10/2002; 8/6/2004;
14/1/2006; 18/8/2007; 28/3/2009; 29/10/2010; 6/6/2012; 12/1/2014;
16/8/2015; 25/3/2017; 27/10/2018;

Average Days between aspects: 583.93
Year x 8/5: 584.4 days
Days lost per eight year cycle: 2.4
Years lost per 8 yr cycle: 0.0065708
Cycles per precessional rotation: 152.19
Years per Precessional rotation: 1,217.5
Years per pentagon point precession: 243.5


Attachment:
Dates of Venus Earth Conjunctions over 50 years.jpg
Dates of Venus Earth Conjunctions over 50 years.jpg [ 220.5 KiB | Viewed 3882 times ]



Last edited by Robert Tulip on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
Robert wrote:

The geometry of the relation between Earth and Venus is actually entirely on topic and I had already raised it myself, but naughty Penelope neglected to quote.


I didn't neglect, I didn't know.

johnson's query was directed at me, and I did not give him duff information.

The point is that the pentagram is true. I hand the stage over to you Robert.

Far be it from me....etc...etc..


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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Forgive my gentle laughter at you Penelope. I simply assumed you were reading the thread. Or maybe what I write looks at first glance like such a dense and impenetrable thicket that even Prince Charming would struggle to hack through to find Sleeping Beauty, and I will remain invisible for another hundred years. I do try to write simply, but this material involves deep challenges to philosophical assumptions. The common derision of The Da Vinci Code is a case in point. I thought it was a superb book, following Leonardo's genius in embedding high secrets in a potboiler, rather like the New Testament in that regard in fact.

One of the books that inspired Dan Brown was The Templar Revelation - Secret Guardians of the True Identity of Christ by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince. I just dug out my copy, and its opening chapter on Leonardo begins with a study of secret messages in The Last Supper. The great irony is that they focus almost entirely on whether the beloved disciple is Mary Magdalene rather than John, and completely miss the real cosmic coding that I am explaining now.

Here is how they open their book on the Templar legacy, edited to highlight their comments that are accidentally supportive of my observation of the zodiac in the Last Supper:

Quote:
The Secret Code of Leonardo da Vinci
It is one of the most famous and enduring works of art in all the world. Leonardo da Vinci's fresco The Last Supper is the one surviving piece of the original church of Santa Maria delle Grazie near Milan...

Leonardo's [painting of the last supper] has for some reason captured the imagination more than most ... Some images may be so familiar that they are never truly examined, and although they lie openly before the viewer's gaze and invite closer scrutiny, at their most profound and meaningful level they actually remain totally closed books. So it is with Leonardo's Last Supper... Generations of academics had simply not observed what leapt to our startled notice... such explosive information had lain patiently waiting all this time for writers like us from outside the mainstream of historical or religious research to discover.

So to begin our story proper we have to return to Leonardo's Last Supper and look at it with new eyes... to let the scales of preconception fall from one's eyes and perhaps for the first time really look at it... Leonardo must have hoped that perhaps others who shared his unusual interpretation of the New Testament message would recognise his version, or that someone, somewhere, some objective observer, would one day seize on the image ... and ask the obvious questions...

We have often heard it said that Leonardo was a pious Christian whose religious paintings reflected the depth of his faith... Nothing could be further from the truth than the idea that Leonard was a true believer - a believer, that is, in any accepted... form of Christianity. Already, the curious and anomalous features in just one of his works seem to indicate that he was trying to tell us of another layer of meaning in that familiar biblical scene, of another world of belief beyond the accepted outline of the image... Whatever those heterodox inclusions may mean, they were... totally at variance with orthodox Christianity...

Leonardo was the first real scientist, a man who had no time for superstitions or religion in any form, who was the very antithesis of the mystic or the occultist. Yet [materialists and rationalists] have failed to see what is plainly set out before their eyes...

Leonardo's other works ... underline his own specific heretical obsessions through carefully applied and consistent imagery... they are not just the equivalent of sticking a red nose on St Peter, for example. What we are looking at in The Last Supper and other works is the secret code of Leonardo da Vinci, which we believe has a startling relevance for the world today....

He despised fortune tellers but his accounts list monies paid to astrologers ... he was both a profound thinker and a master of riddles... there was surely no need for him to put his head on the block by working such heretical messages into his paintings unless he had a passionalte belief in them ... Leonard was deeply, seriously committed to a system of belief that ran totally counter to ... mainstream Christianity.

The lynchpin of all the groups of the day was hermeticism, which takes its name from Hermes Trismegistus, the great, if legendary, Egyptian magus... the most important part of hermetic thinking was the idea that man was in some way literally divine - a concept that was in itself so threatening to the Church's hold on the hearts and minds of its flock as to be deemed anathema... Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) ... proclaimed that his beliefs came from an ancient Egyptian religion that preceded Christianity - and which eclipsed it in importance ... given the risks involved in being openly part of them, it is unlikely that Leonardo would commit any evidence of this to paper...

was the message that can be read into his paintings in some way actually true?



Last edited by Robert Tulip on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Interesting Robert. "The Tulip Code" continues...

It's definitely something to consider. I tend to think that LD was on to most of this as others were. We always find those here and there who understood the links to ancient Egyptian lore and it wasn't completely lost at any point when you really get into it. It was just lesser known for a while. I can see how this particular correspondence seems odd at first glance because as we know the DC is largely fiction and any speculation concerning The Last Supper is immediately suspect in likewise fashion. It's still worth considering though.

The pentagram of Venus is a good case and point for how something simple like the basic mapping of a planetary orbit (the orbit of a wanderer unlike the back ground stars which do not wander in the way that planets do) drew attention from ancient observers. Venus, among other things, was the morning star and the "light bearer" of myth. The story of the fall of Lucifer from heaven is pretty much based on an old allegory about how the planet Venus shines bright just before sunrise but then the sun comes up and blows it into insigficance - Jesus verses Lucifer:

So in time the pentagram became associated with evil and so on. And Venus was eventually viewed with negativity because of this. Some people could see this correspondence between Venus and the pentagram of occult lore and start thinking 'well that's a coincidence' when it really isn't much a coincidence at all. The pentagram is what it is today because it's based on astronomical observation from the beginning and also tied into the mathematical geometry of the heavens in likewise fashion.

It's interesting to look back at all of the superstition and nonesense going around from believers and satanist and occultists about this astral symbolism which is simply a small piece of the old astronomical observation given allegorically in myth. In the end it boils down to the question of whether or not there's anything evil or spooky or even good about the freaking planet Venus wandering about the night sky and shinning bring just before sunrise...
:P


_________________
YEC theory put to rest!!!

https://www.ex-christian.net/


Last edited by tat tvam asi on Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:56 pm
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