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The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper 
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
ant wrote:
By the way, Leonardo is not on record as having any philosophical commitments. Quite the contrary, he wrote nearly nothing about his personal reflections about any ideas of the time,
Particularly anything related to astronomy. - NOTHING Can you provide evidence for that claim, Robert? You are becoming a fraudulent scientist. Its going to be fun slapping the doodoo out of this crazy fantasy of yours. every bully needs this type of beatdown.


Again, ant makes incredibly stupid and ignorant assertions here, flinging mad bullying insults because I have questioned his hostility to the science of evolution. ant's questions are solely aimed to defend his traditional supernatural religious commitments, and have a creationist flavour to them. Ant’s assertions of fraud and error on my part are entirely false, and his aggressive errors about astronomy and philosophy are easy to refute.

I earlier mentioned Leonardo's comment that "The earth is not in the centre of the Sun's orbit nor at the centre of the universe.” (858) He also says "The sun does not move". (886) This was written in his Notebooks several decades before Copernicus and illustrates his support for heliocentric astronomy. I have mentioned this in this thread which it appears ant has ignored.

As I have detailed in this thread, Leonardo’s Notebooks provide extensive support for his philosophical commitment to Hermetic method, the idea of “as above so below”. This is the principle later used by Sir Isaac Newton as the basis of modern astronomy and physics. Leonardo wrote “Hermes the Philosopher”.

In response to a question earlier from Geo at post84371.html#p84371 I wrote that “Gnostic tradition saw the divine in nature. Suppression of such ideas as heresy meant they could not be spoken openly in Leonardo’s day. Yet, if Leonardo was sympathetic to such thinking of Hermes the philosopher, what better way to express it than in a painting that seems to validate Christian dogma while actually pointing to a higher truth?”

At post91743.html#p91743 I wrote that Leonardo “anticipated a fractal philosophy through his observation of reflection between microcosm and macrocosm. For example, he found that the anatomy of veins and arteries follows the same geometry as the roots and branches of a tree. There is a deep sense of causal logic here, using observation to articulate a natural necessity… Jessica Teisch and Tracy Barr [write]
Quote:
“Leonardo saw patterns in nature and revered all forms of life. His insatiable curiosity led him to constantly observe, experiment, theorise and invent. His anatomical studies show an advanced understanding of the systems in the body. His ideas about the stars and heavens prefigured later great thinkers like Copernicus and Galileo. All Leonardo's endeavours were connected by his never-ending quest to discover and understand the underlying principle, or design, of the universe. He observed an integrated universal design in unrelated objects and natural phenomena. He saw the world as interconnected, with things at the micro level mirroring designs at the macro level, for example human arms and legs functioning sort of like tree branches do. Human perception and experience, rather than religious teaching, mysticism, superstition, alchemy, or even Aristotelian logic, provided the real core of understanding of the universe. This quest for truth freed him from medieval scientific convention. For most of his life, Leonardo developed theories about the micro and macrocosmos. He compared the circulation of the Earth, for example, to the circulation of the human body: both living systems seemed to operate according to similar rules. His desire for perfection - to render each detail, from a petal to a finger, strikingly realistic - hindered his productivity. Painting The Last Supper, he'd stare at the wall for a few hours, perhaps fix one tiny thing or make one small brush stroke, and then return home to work on other pressing projects. In some ways, he adhered to tradition, but in other areas he was a true explorer, a pioneer whose fertile imagination grasped and prophecied unheard of possibilities. Most of Leonardo's dreams had to wait a few centuries to be realized. The Leonardo's of the world - those visionary audacious thinkers - are the ones who break with an antiquated past and move the world forward one step at a time.”


I can see that ant simply and blithely dismisses this entire scholarly understanding of Leonardo’s modern position and work because it clashes with ant's pre-modern supernatural faith. But the point of this thread is entirely about scientific analysis, a broad topic to which ant continues to display a deep and irrational opposition.


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Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:10 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
The two authors you cite as a source of evidence have zero expertise in either renaissance history of are Leonardo scholars. Nor are they saying anything that backs up your craziness.


His studies on anatomy as depicted in his drawings have nothing to do with a christian motif of any kind. There is simply no connection there in the record.

Quote:
could not be spoken openly in Leonardo’s day. Yet, if Leonardo was sympathetic to such thinking of Hermes the philosopher, what better way to express it than in a painting that seems to validate Christian dogma while actually pointing to a higher truth?”


That is wild " what if" speculation that be used as an argument for nearly anything the arguer wants.
It's baseless and there is zero evidence in Leonardo's writings or works for it - nothing.

Your speculative analysis is simply a kind of virtual vandalism of the painting itself.

It has been said of Leonardo "there is genius. And then there is genius. And then there is Leonardo"
The man was very nomadic in his career as a courtier and an artist. His range of interests were highly diverse but he left very very little of his personal reflections/beliefs on anything. They simply arent there in the record.
There is also not much of his work that actually survived. It is very much a piecing together project when any scholar attempts to know the man himself. There have been several biographical constructions of him by various scholars over the years, all inventing the man they wished to invent.
read "Inventing Leonardo" by renaissance scholar A. Richard Turner. Unfortunately for you, there is no da Vinci code craziness discussed.

What is well understood is his humanistic style of portraiture which I clearly articulated and reflects the renaissance movement in art.

What you are engaging in here is vacuous circumlocution.

Whats evident here is your emotional attachment to your 3rd grade thesis. It is your little wacky brain child you are emotionally invested in and will protect at any cost. Even if it makes you look silly.

You take much pride in being a scientist. Hence your very identity is at risk here.
You have zero credentials that would cause anyone to take you seriously. I seriously doubt youve even read one book on the man.
Because science is a prestigious field you seem to think you embody that same prestige and are an authority in anything you stick your hands into.

This entire thesis of yours is surely a joke. It is about as credible as The Da Vincu code.
Try selling it to Hollywood. Some desperate starving director might take it off your hands for 2 dollars.
Thats what its worth.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:55 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Ill help you out here because of your inability to find credible sources;

"For the Florentine of Leonardo's time, drawing - disegno - was the foundation of all the visual arts. Leonardo's education in draftmanship would have been in the context of preparation for finished works of art and probably learned in the sequence that he himself recommended to students much later: coping of drawings of accomplished masters, followed by drawings of three dimensional model, culminating in drawing from an appropriate life model. In short, the emphasis was upon repeated imitation not upon the imagination as the point of departure. The success of this training, supervised by the master, was a reciprocal process of making and judging" - A. Richard Turner

This method of copying the works of previous masters was exactly how Leonardo was trained as a painter.
The Last Supper narrative portraitures were a common theme in Leonardo's time. And as ive said before, the positioning of the characters at the table was common. What Leonardo introduced was a refreshing humanistic element to the character's facial and bodily expressions. Each character's intellectual presence became alive to the viewer "reading" the narrative.

Its that simple and that obvious.
Such genius has no need for superfluous covert nonsense.
Perhaps an artist would understand that better than you.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:22 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Leaving aside ant's manifest errors and worsening rudeness (which should get him suspended), the simple point at issue here is that I have made an important new discovery with world historical significance, and ant's blind inability to see it is a perfect illustration of how a person with emotional commitment to an old paradigm is unable to see simple evidence.

The use by Leonardo of the stars as his template is as obvious as the moons of Jupiter, but to see the moons of Jupiter you have to be willing to look through a telescope.


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Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:29 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
There is no commitment to any philosophical doctrine in Leonardo's notes.
His examination of the natural world purely by the talent of the observer's eye is clear and something Leonardo wrote about - vision is superior to verbal expression.

Leonardo considered himself a man " not of letters"
So perhaps his articulations that site is the superior method of examination of nature is related to his admittance that he did not have an extensive education.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:34 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Robert Tulip wrote:
Leaving aside ant's manifest errors and worsening rudeness (which should get him suspended), the simple point at issue here is that I have made an important new discovery with world historical significance, and ant's blind inability to see it is a perfect illustration of how a person with emotional commitment to an old paradigm is unable to see simple evidence.

The use by Leonardo of the stars as his template is as obvious as the moons of Jupiter, but to see the moons of Jupiter you have to be willing to look through a telescope.


You are losing ground here
It is obvious you have not even attempted to do any serious research here.
The man's life and his historical context is the only way you should be approaching this.

You do not wish to engage in a serious discussion about Da Vinci. You'd rather play "what if" games to advance your fairy-tale thesis in order to virtually vandalize the most famous religiously themed work of art in the history of mankind.
And all because youre an atheist.

How absolutely pathetic.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:41 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Unfortunately everything that ant says is completely wrong. He is crazy. His arguments in this thread are of flat earth creationist quality, flatly refusing to examine the compelling evidence I have provided that Leonardo did in fact use the zodiac as his template for the Last Supper. Ant simply skirts around this central issue, like a flat earther arguing that the horizon looks flat. But ant does not read or understand what I say, so don't expect any sensible reply from him.

Max May, who I have never met, saw that the evidence of my argument is compelling and obvious in purely empirical terms. Max prepared the youtube video matching each figure in the fresco to its corresponding stars. This simply would not be possible if the science were not simple and correct. This is a no-brainer as to the correctness of my claim. But the inability of fundamentalists like ant to engage with it exhibits some fascinating problems in cultural psychology, with abuse replacing dialogue.

So ant's insults have a mildly deranged quality to them, indicating that he needs pity and help. Ant wonders why I call him a troll. It is because he exactly typifies the internet phenomenon of someone with nothing positive to say who gets emotional pleasure from baiting people by making outrageous false statements.


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Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:16 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
Unfortunately everything that ant says is completely wrong. He is crazy. His arguments in this thread are of flat earth creationist quality


Huh??

What are Mr. May's credentials?

You seem desperate now.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:30 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
This is about evidence, not credentials. I neither know nor care what Max's credentials are. What I care about is that his depiction matches the natural evidence I have collected, which it does, except for some small technical points. I also care that the long string of groundless abuse that ant has directed towards me in this and other threads is a sign of his mental instability. I understand that ant goes into 'brain fry' mode at the mere mention of the zodiac, and find that a fascinating problem helping to illustrate why my findings remain invisible.


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Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:43 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Robert Tulip wrote:
This is about evidence, not credentials. I neither know nor care what Max's credentials are. What I care about is that his depiction matches the natural evidence I have collected, which it does, except for some small technical points. I also care that the long string of groundless abuse that ant has directed towards me in this and other threads is a sign of his mental instability. I understand that ant goes into 'brain fry' mode at the mere mention of the zodiac, and find that a fascinating problem helping to illustrate why my findings remain invisible.


Of course you dont care about credentials here.
What you care about is if someone agrees with you.


You wont get any sympathy from me.

This type of atheist hooliganism toward art is deplorable.
I'm shocked that you've spent so much energy making this stuff up.



Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:08 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Wow ant, you just get stupider. Are you really saying that people should ignore the basic scientific facts in the video made by Max on the basis of credentialism? And you call me desperate? Keep digging that hole.

Your use of this ad hominem argument style is a great exercise in fallacious reasoning. You have exposed your own ignorant bigoted motives by describing the constellation shapes as "graffiti". That exhibits a complete failure on your part to see the natural grandeur of the cosmos, something Leonardo was especially alive to.


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Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:36 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
ant wrote:
This type of atheist hooliganism toward art is deplorable.
I'm shocked that you've spent so much energy making this stuff up.


This doesn't add anything ant. Stop trolling.

Quote:
I have made an important new discovery with world historical significance


I watched the video where the constellations are overlayed and stretched. In each case, is the anchor point the center of the face, or the center of a hand? Something that has a pattern of intention? I saw one that was simply the shape of the hand, which is a deviation from the mold.


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Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:07 am
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Here are Leonardo's words taken from "Treatise on Painting" - a work published by one of his former pupils after Leonardo's death:

Quote:
The most important things that can be found in the analysis of painting are the movements appropriate to the states of mind of each living creature, such as desire, contempt, anger, pity, and the like


The Last Supper is the epitome of what Leonardo has expressed in his notations.
It immediately proclaims a theme of betrayal. Each character reacts in posture, hand gesture, and facial expression to Christ's announcement that one them will betray him. Their movements are a deliberate exemplification of what Leonardo feels is most important in narrative portraiture.

Leonardo in his notes urges the painter to understand these things before dwelling on beauty:

Therefore, painter, compose parts of your figures arbitrarily, then attend fist to the movements representative of the mental attitudes of the creatures composing your narrative painting, rather than to the beauty and goodness of the parts of their bodies

Leonardo was commissioned specifically to paint one of the most popular historical narratives of the time for the Santa Maria delle Grazie in Milan.
There is no evidence either in writing or prior sketch work that is cause for belief that Leonardo at any time surreptitiously added symbolism of any kind to his humanistic portrays of characters in religiously themed portraits.

A broad religious social milieu of the time is not evidence to pin one man, particularly of the intellectual stature of Leonardo, to a particular philosophical commitment. The Last Supper commission was very clear and straightforward.

Richard Turner, in his book Inventing Leonardo states the following:

Quote:
The scene is a conversation of hands, as if Leonardo unconsciously or otherwise were aware of the ancient rhetorician Quintilain's reflections on the potency of speaking hands


Each character gives voice to the narrative and communicates to an observer what is transpiring at the Last Supper: They have been told by Christ that one of them will betray him. Each apostle reacts emotionally and true to his character as described in the Bible.

Leonardo (below) aptly expresses what a narrative painting ought to accomplish:

Quote:
The elements of narrative paintings ought to move those who look at or contemplate them in the same way as he who the narrative painting represents.



Yes - it's really that simple.

We can see, as evidenced by Leonardo himself, that he was true to his own words regarding capturing psychological/emotive presence of a character within a specific narrative. Extraneous speculation dirties an artist's sole purpose of capturing a human moment in time. It sullies what the artist's eye and mind wish to share openly with an observer. Clarity is his objective, not some form of foolish, covert symbolism.

You simply either do not understand this, or are willfully casting aside what is obvious and elegant to advance a kooky act of subterfuge by a genius you obviously have no real honest interest in.

There is genius, and then there is genius, AND THEN THERE IS LEONARDO.
So, you've got a mega genius all figured out, eh, Robert?


Do you have anything else to present here that advances your argument besides a youtube video and the support of someone named "Max May"?



Last edited by ant on Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:53 pm
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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
Quote:
This doesn't add anything ant. Stop trolling.


Just what I was hoping for, our fair and impartial moderator to step in!

NICE!!

Thanks so much, Interbane!



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Post Re: The Zodiac in Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper
By the way..,

I bet if I added points on all orthogonal lines on the Last Supper I could add new celestial bodies that would contradict your, uh, "findings" and or find the infamous "flying spaghetti monster" ascending over the the apostles heads, taking flight in an easterly direction.



Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:12 pm
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