Interbane wrote:Even if you have a wall, you need to patrol it, and devote all the same resources. Because a wall doesn't actually stop the traffic. It only serves as a speed bump in the desert.

I'd think resources would be better spent on a fleet of drones specialized in identifying foot traffic and alerting border patrol. They already use this to great effect, but it's localized. Perhaps that wouldn't work, but I think the answer is some sort of monitoring technology that alerts border patrol, rather than a glorified speed bump.

Any type of structural deterrence at porous locations of the border - which are mostly Nevada and Texas. In addition to the type of drone surveillance you've indicated would be beneficial.
It doesn't have to be a Great Wall of China.

But, yes, drone surveillance is desirable and warranted. Maybe some of Obama's Hunter / Killer drones thrown in.

Ps

A lot of liberals are gutless with this topic. They ridicule any type of improved border security but will never go as far as seriously arguing what a lot undoubtedly want - a borderless world they irrationally think will ring in the dawn of some fantasy Kumbaya utopian secular kingdom. After which, at some point earth will become a member of the United Federation of Interstellar Planets.

ant wrote:A lot of liberals are gutless with this topic. They ridicule any type of improved border security but will never go as far as seriously arguing what a lot undoubtedly want - a borderless world they irrationally think will ring in the dawn of some fantasy Kumbaya utopian secular kingdom. After which, at some point earth will become a member of the United Federation of Interstellar Planets.

I'm sure there are liberals who want this, but none that I know. Even multinationalists appreciate strong borders for security reasons.

Any type of structural deterrence at porous locations of the border - which are mostly Nevada and Texas. In addition to the type of drone surveillance you've indicated would be beneficial.
It doesn't have to be a Great Wall of China.

But, yes, drone surveillance is desirable and warranted. Maybe some of Obama's Hunter / Killer drones thrown in.

But why spend billions on a structural deterrence when you still need surveillance and patrol? Why not simply forego the structural part, which is only a speed bump, and put the money into what Border Patrol agents have been begging for - increased surveillance either through drones or surveillance towers? When the structural deterrence blocks line of sight for border patrol, they can't see what's on the other side. It's a common complaint from them. If you leave air gaps or use mesh to be able to see through, it can be pried or cut.

The problem with drones to date is they've been outrageously expensive. A predator drone is 17 million, and costs 10k an hour to operate. Obviously that wouldn't work. The costs limited drone missions to just under 6k hours last year. CBP is testing hand launched drones, but I don't know the results of those tests.

If Intel can make a drone swarm that flies into crazy displays in the air, the technology is there to create a virtual wall through surveillance along the border.

Even multinationalists appreciate strong borders for security reasons.

Name one and provide something that I can read attesting to that claim. I'm not saying there aren't any.. I just want to read something concrete that professes it.


I admittedly like what you're saying about where to spend the money for surveillance, but even "speed-bumps" do a job. A physical speed bump that can be manufactured and costs substantially less than some sort of Grand Wall would still be some benefit. It's an obstacle that would need to be negotiated at least, thus creating more time for both drone and surveillance towers to zero in on.
At the very least, an actual speed bump in a neighborhood slows down a speeding, reckless driver, thus allowing more time for better identification and reporting.

We can use some of the generated tax revenue from recreational marijuana.. Or tax Los Angeles street vendors selling churros or corn on the cob.

ant wrote:I admittedly like what you're saying about where to spend the money for surveillance, but even "speed-bumps" do a job. A physical speed bump that can be manufactured and costs substantially less than some sort of Grand Wall would still be some benefit. It's an obstacle that would need to be negotiated at least, thus creating more time for both drone and surveillance towers to zero in on.
At the very least, an actual speed bump in a neighborhood slows down a speeding, reckless driver, thus allowing more time for better identification and reporting.

Yeah, speed bumps can serve a purpose. And in the end, maybe a mixture of a 30 foot tall wall with surveillance and patrols is the key. But part of me thinks there has to be a more elegant solution. Something where we spend less money but achieve the same result.

Name one and provide something that I can read attesting to that claim. I'm not saying there aren't any.. I just want to read something concrete that professes it.

I have nothing but my memory and a handful of friends I argue with. If it helps, I think multinationalism is the way of the future, but that doesn't mean we don't secure our borders. Nothing to support my claim online though.

Ant wrote:Name one and provide something that I can read attesting to that claim. I'm not saying there aren't any.. I just want to read something concrete that professes it.

As I recall on another thread you derided President Obama as "The Deporter in Chief." It seems you're aware of recent history that disproves the caricature of Liberals as wanting zero border security, Kumbayah, etc. (Apologies if that was another poster.)

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"A REAL scandal is the one sided coverage, hour by hour, of networks like NBC & Democrat spin machines like Saturday Night Live. It is all nothing less than unfair news coverage and Dem commercials. Should be tested in courts, can’t be legal? Only defame & belittle! Collusion?"
5:58 AM - 16 Dec 2018

Judge Ken Starr, former Solicitor Generel [sic] & Independent Counsel, just stated that, after two years, “there is no evidence or proof of collusion” & further that “there is no evidence that there was a campaign financing violation involving the President.” Thank you Judge. @FoxNews
7:20 AM - 16 Dec 2018
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How do I find out what Mueller has and hasn't found? Everyone on Fox News appears to know.

Interbane wrote:
Yeah, speed bumps can serve a purpose. And in the end, maybe a mixture of a 30 foot tall wall with surveillance and patrols is the key.

No. Some guy at work was telling me something like that: "We have to make it utterly smooth so they have nothing to grab." I just shook my head. Ever hear of a ladder? There are stores within a mile of the border on the Mexican that sell the extension ladders. They can scale 30 feet in 2 seconds. So how high do you make it? 50 feet? They'll get a longer ladder. A 100 feet? How much will that cost us--because we all know Mexico isn't the country that's going to pay for it one or another, don't we gang? It's going to be the US that pays for it one way or another. in fact, EVERY single idea floated has the US ultimately paying for it. Remember in 2016? It was remittances that would pay for it. Trump was going to stop all that US money illegals were sending home to Mexico and which contributes $25 billion a year to their economy. When Obama heard that, he laughed and said, "Good luck with that." Ever since then, not a single word about remittances. Even if it were feasible, whose money is being stopped that will pay for the wall? US money. Now Trump says it come out his disguised NAFTA deal but NO MONEY ever comes to the US from that deal! That is not how it is structured before or after Trump renamed it. There's no money to be had to build a picket fence much less his wall.

But part of me thinks there has to be a more elegant solution. Something where we spend less money but achieve the same result.

Dream on. Not going to happen. Just like Trump's wall. Not. Going. To. Happen. Nothing will stop them from coming in. Nothing. Get over it. Get used to it.

I have nothing but my memory and a handful of friends I argue with. If it helps, I think multinationalism is the way of the future, but that doesn't mean we don't secure our borders. Nothing to support my claim online though.

Close the border or open it. It will make ABSOLUTELY no difference. None.

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Today I am making good on my promise to defend our Farmers & Ranchers from unjustified trade retaliation by foreign nations. I have authorized Secretary Perdue to implement the 2nd round of Market Facilitation Payments. Our economy is stronger than ever–we stand with our Farmers!
— Donald J. Trump

President Donald Trump on Monday said he authorized a second round of payments from an aid package of up to $12 billion designed to help farmers stung by the U.S. trade war with China, billing it as a promise kept to a key constituency.
— Reuters

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"We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency."
– Donald J. Trump

"Mexico is paying (indirectly) for the Wall through the new USMCA, the replacement for NAFTA! Far more money coming to the U.S. Because of the tremendous dangers at the Border, including large scale criminal and drug inflow, the United States Military will build the Wall!"
– Donald J. Trump.



I was thinking Trump might be of German descent but, "[A]ll nouns are capitalized in German, wherever they appear in a sentence. This is a nearly unique feature in a contemporary language, and it’s helpful in parsing sentences when there are words you don’t know. We used to do it in English, as you can see in old documents like the U.S. Constitution."
germanforenglishspeakers.com/basics/cap ... nctuation/

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"With so much talk about the Wall, people are losing sight of the great job being done on our Southern Border by Border Patrol, ICE and our great Military. Remember the Caravans? Well, they didn’t get through and none are forming or on their way. Border is tight. Fake News silent!"
— Donald J. Trump

"The Democrats, who know Steel Slats (Wall) are necessary for Border Security, are putting politics over Country. What they are just beginning to realize is that I will not sign any of their legislation, including infrastructure, unless it has perfect Border Security. U.S.A. WINS!"
— Donald J. Trump

Doublethink:
"To know and to not know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy is impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy. To forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself."
— George Orwell