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The NT was written in the 2nd century 
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Post The NT was written in the 2nd century
Here's an excellent video series outlining the problem of first century Gospel dating. I'm posting the 25 part series and it's well worth watching for those interested in understanding the ins and outs of why first century dating is based on wishful thinking at best:



























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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
More trash?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

This ought to be good.


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Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:16 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
I just posted a 25 part video series that answers that question in graphic detail, enjoy.


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
tat tvam asi wrote:
I just posted a 25 part video series that answers that question in graphic detail, enjoy.


I figured that would be your response. I do not say answer because it is not one. I have read the Bible many times and there is no reference to the destruction of Jerusalem of the Temple as events which have occurred. On that basis, I charge that your post implying that the New Testament was written in the 2nd Century is False unless you resort to a ruse that you are correct becaue it was copied during the 2nd Century. The claim for 2nd century origin of the NT was thoroughly explored and rejected by scholars the the reason I cited among others. If you have some friends who take 25 videos to prove otherwise I suggest you shower, shave and delete the videos.


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Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:50 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
It's too bad you choose to keep posting without watching first. You keep embarassing yourself in the process. And of course it isn't coming down. Readers need to be aware of the numerous problems and the simplest explanation that comes from taking all of the available evidence into consideration.


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
This looks cool... I will give it a look...

Later


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Thanks Frank, I've made friends with GodAlmighty after the series came out. Great guy.


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
tat tvam asi wrote:
It's too bad you choose to keep posting without watching first. You keep embarassing yourself in the process. And of course it isn't coming down. Readers need to be aware of the numerous problems and the simplest explanation that comes from taking all of the available evidence into consideration.


My problem with the videos is that they are a lazy way of presenting information. They leave no lasting record for the viewer. If I want to check something I have to record the reference and then find it. If there is signfiicant evidence then produce it as a list of bullets with references. Futher, a 25 part series! are you serious? Who has time for that? You are just trying to overwhelm. I know what I am going to get anyway, convoluted reasoning, cross-references within the community and distorted quotes from mainstream scholars. The New Testament was complete by the end of the first century. Google: "when was the new testament written" and take your pick.


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Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
This video starts with the assumption that the NT is considered to be written late in the first century and then moves on from there. If you want to check the sources then you hit pause, get the source, and then go from there. Most of the sources in GodAlmighty's videos are online sources, easily accessed by the viewer, and are readily available for all to seek out and consider. But then you would have already known that if cared to watch the series before trying to comment on it. No matter, it's all right there for you to watch, read, and consider Stahrwe - and everyone else browsing the Biblical section of the BT forums of course. It's about gaining higher knowledge about this particular issue...


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
tat tvam asi wrote:
This video starts with the assumption that the NT is considered to be written late in the first century and then moves on from there. If you want to check the sources then you hit pause, get the source, and then go from there. Most of the sources in GodAlmighty's videos are online sources, easily accessed by the viewer, and are readily available for all to seek out and consider. But then you would have already known that if cared to watch the series before trying to comment on it. No matter, it's all right there for you to watch, read, and consider Stahrwe - and everyone else browsing the Biblical section of the BT forums of course. It's about gaining higher knowledge about this particular issue...


I restate my objections and comments. The series is a waste of time. It does not account for the most simple of objections and its premise has been examined and dismissed by countless NT scholars.

Quote:
Dates of composition
The earliest works which came to be part of the New Testament are the letters of the Apostle Paul. Most scholars generally agree on the dating of many books in the New Testament, except for those some believe to be pseudepigraphical[citation needed] (i.e., those thought not to be written by their traditional authors). The Gospel of Mark is dated from as early as the 50s, although most scholars date between the range of 65 and 72.[57] Most scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were written after the composition of Mark as they make use of Mark's content. Therefore they are generally dated later than Mark although the extent is debated. Matthew is dated between 70 and 85. Luke is usually placed within 80 to 95. However a select few scholars disagree with this as Luke indicates in the book of Acts that he has already written the Gospel of Luke prior to writing the introduction to Acts. The earliest of the books of the New Testament was First Thessalonians, an epistle of Paul, written probably in AD 51, or possibly Galatians in 49 according to one of two theories of its writing. Of the pseudepigraphical epistles, scholars tend to place them somewhere between 70 and 150, with Second Peter usually being the latest.[citation needed]
In the 1830s German scholars of the Tübingen school dated the books as late as the 3rd century, but the discovery of some New Testament manuscripts and fragments from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, one of which dates as early as AD 125 (Papyrus 52), disproves a 3rd century date of composition for any book now in the New Testament. Additionally, a letter to the church at Corinth in the name of Clement of Rome in 95 quotes from 10 of the 27 books of the New Testament, and a letter to the church at Philippi in the name of Polycarp in 120 quotes from 16 books. Therefore, some of the books of the New Testament were at least in a first-draft stage, though there is negligible evidence in these quotes or among biblical manuscripts for the existence of different early drafts. Other books were probably not completed until later, assuming they must have been quoted by Clement or Polycarp. There are, however, many discrepancies between manuscripts, though the majority of the errors are clearly errors of transcription or minor in scope.

On the other extreme is the dating proposed by John A. T. Robinson. He claimed that, since he believed none of the writings in the New Testament showed clear evidence of a knowledge of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (in AD 70), which Robinson thought should certainly have appeared considering the importance of that event for Jews and Christians of that time, that every book which would come to form the New Testament was therefore written before AD 70.[58] Given Robinson's appeal to the absence of evidence, his view is widely rejected by New Testament scholars.
57. ^ Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity. 260.
58. ^ Robinson, John A. T.: Redating the New Testament. Philadelphia: Westminster, 1976.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testam ... omposition


Also, check out the sermon from Joe Coffey
The Problem with the Bible
hudsonchapel.org/site.cfm/watch-listen. ... en.cfm.cfm

Though I disagree with the last point of the Wikipedia article, it strengthens the case against the video series.


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Last edited by stahrwe on Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:15 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
stahrwe wrote:
More trash?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

This ought to be good.

As far as the Gospels are concerned, why would anyone expect that writings originating after 70 CE and purporting to be about the era of around 35 CE, would mention what happened in the time of the composition? If I write about events in the 1980s, mentioning 9/11 would seem to be an anachronism, and I probably wouldn't do it. I noted that your own post on the dating of the Gospels allows for a post-destruction date of composition.



Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:47 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Thanks DWill, that basically outlines the obvious reason Stahrwe is pressing for - the story is written to appear to prophecize the destruction of the temple, long after the destruction had taken place, for proselytizing reasons. That's akin to writing a story now about the 1980's where a person that is claimed to have divine knowledge back in the 1980's is portrayed as predicting the events of 911 in advance to them happening in order to say, 'look, he knew the future outcome.'

Hardly a strong argument for early dating the gospels Stahrwe. And you'll find, once again, that the video series starts out by outlining what the traditional dates consist of which is merely the starting point for a much deeper scholarly investigation.

So let's look at the early dates you've posted:
Quote:
The Gospel of Mark is dated from as early as the 50s, although most scholars date between the range of 65 and 72.[57] Most scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were written after the composition of Mark as they make use of Mark's content. Therefore they are generally dated later than Mark although the extent is debated. Matthew is dated between 70 and 85.

So back to your question:
Quote:
Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

Why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple according to the early dates you've given, which post date the destruction of the temple? The answer is that they speak of the temple in terms of Jesus predicting that it would be destroyed, after it had already been destroyed. This is make it look like Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple. Now that's just with the early dating. The gospels don't appear into the historical record until well into the second century at that.
Quote:
In the 1830s German scholars of the Tübingen school dated the books as late as the 3rd century, but the discovery of some New Testament manuscripts and fragments from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, one of which dates as early as AD 125 (Papyrus 52), disproves a 3rd century date of composition for any book now in the New Testament.


Once again, this video series is about taking the evidence into consideration which is that there's no mention of the NT until the 2nd century, the very thing described in your above quote. No one's claimed that the NT was written in the 3rd century in this video series, the claim is in line with the evidence that points to the NT appearing into the historical record during the 2nd century which is confirmed by your own quote...


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Last edited by tat tvam asi on Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.



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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
DWill wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
More trash?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

This ought to be good.

As far as the Gospels are concerned, why would anyone expect that writings originating after 70 CE and purporting to be about the era of around 35 CE, would mention what happened in the time of the composition? If I write about events in the 1980s, mentioning 9/11 would seem to be an anachronism, and I probably wouldn't do it. I noted that your own post on the dating of the Gospels allows for a post-destruction date of composition.


This is a poor argument.

First, one might not expect that something written about New York City of the 80's would deal at lenght with the 9/11 attacks but I would expect, when such a document referred to the World Trade Center there would be a note or something relating to their destruction. The same is true, on even a larger scale for Jerusalem, as the Temple was not merely an edicifice, it was the central focus of worship for all of Israel. Additionally, it wasn't just the temple but the entire city of Jerusalem which was destroyed. In a future discussion of New York City looking back on the time before the entire city was destroyed I would expect at least a mention of that destruction. For you to argue otherwise is like Wright ignoring Abraham's call.

Additionally, there were mentions of Jerusalem in the context of its future destruction which would have been logical places to include a confirming note had the event already taken place.

Your argument almost supposes that the documents were written with the intention of passing them off as earlier compositions. There is nothing to suggest that.


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Last edited by stahrwe on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
tat tvam asi wrote:
Thanks DWill, that basically outlines the obvious reason Stahrwe is pressing for - the story is written to appear to prophecize the destruction of the temple, long after the destruction had taken place, for proselytizing reasons. That's akin to writing a story about the 1980's where a person that is claimed to have divine knowledge predicted the events of 911 in advance to them happening in order to say, 'look, he knew the future outcome.'

Hardly a strong argument for early dating the gospels Stahrwe. And you'll find, once again, that the series starts out by outlining what the traditional dates consist of which is the starting point for investigation.


As opposed to starting with imagined/fabricated dates and backing into them.


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
The bible has no predictive power, other than the faithful's zeal for disagreeing and murdering on matters of fairy-tale detail.

if you want predictive power, look no further than science.

how about predicting the exact location, duration and area of effect of every lunar eclipse ever? both forward and backward in time.

How about an understanding of the progression of disease? how to avoid them, how to resist them, and how to cure them? how about understanding the chemical composition of every day items to understand their toxicity, or the contents of celestial bodies hundreds of millions of kilometers away?

religion has NOTHING to compete with the predictive power of science.

Star, you are pointing at the equivalent of me writing a "predictive" story about 1942 right now in 2011. It's garbage.


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Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?

Confidence being an expectation built on past experience, evidence and extrapolation to the future. Faith being an expectation held in defiance of past experience and evidence.


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