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The NT was written in the 2nd century 
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
tat tvam asi wrote:
The Ben Stada thing is interesting enough. If It could be proven then that's so much worse for the believer position than the purely mythical Jesus theory. But either way the believer position is a complete fraud which ever way it goes. At least now I sit back and laugh at the whole thing. They had me duped. The Christ Conspiracy is just that. I'm just glad that I've at least caught on to it. And rather know the cold hard facts than otherwise. It sucks for a lot of people but it is what it is. The world is a very deceptive place and our religions are certainly not excluded in any way from that, they're rather the very forefront of it...

This is pretty sad especially for all of the sick, lame, BLIND, deaf, dumb, etc. It's a sick and twisted lie to have dangled over these poor peoples heads over the years. But at least if you die and that's it, they never even know that they were duped by the myth.

I've been around a lot of disabled people who cling to the Jesus myth for obvious reasons. My disabled step daughter who will never walk in this life time, however, has not been raised to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the bible as literal truths. I simply spoil her with lots of love and tell her the truth - death is a mystery that no one knows with absolute certainty. So is the mystery of causation. Those who claim to know absolutely are lying. And she understands that. She chooses not to go to church because she doen't like it or the people there for that matter. I love that little girl a lot and I'm proud of how smart she is. She can't walk or use the bathroom by herself, but her mind is sharp and brilliant. It would be wrong to give her false ideas about Jesus and some magical heaven knowing what I know about this dark myth masqurading around as a great light to the world...


Quote:
Ben Stada

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud
Written by Gil Student


Introduction
There are four main passages in the Talmud that are alleged by some to discuss the story of Jesus' life and death. What we will do here is to analyze closely these passages and see the reasons one may or may not attribute these stories to the life of Jesus. We will also look at another two passages that help us identify our protagonist(s). We will quickly realize that there are great difficulties in stating that any of these texts refer to Jesus. We will see that a large number of historians and talmudists have addressed these issues and have concluded that either none of these passages refer to Jesus or that they refer to a proto-Jesus, whose life was later obfuscated by the theologically motivated rewriting of history.

Passages
It is important to keep in mind that there are many people in the Talmud with the same names. R. Aaron Hyman in his biographical work on the sages of the Talmud, Toldot Tannaim VeAmoraim, lists 14 Hillels, 61 Elazars, and 71 Hunas. Josephus lists approximately twenty different men named Jesus, at least ten of whom lived in the same time as the famous Jesus [cf. John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, p. 206 n. 6]. The name Panthera was also a common name in the first two centuries [cf. L. Patterson, "Origin of the Name Panthera", JTS 19 (1917-18), p. 79-80, cited in Meier, p. 107 n. 48]. When dealing with first names, it is very common to come across different people in the Talmud with the same name and the same applies today. When I refer to Bill, am I talking about the President of the United States, the billionaire founder of Microsoft, or a local celebrity? In one place I could mean one Bill and in another place a different Bill. It is therefore almost impossible to identify someone based on their first name alone. Second names, which in the Talmud means the name of the father, enable us to identify people with much better accuracy, but not entirely. It is very possible for both two men and their father's to have the same names. This makes history much harder but ignoring this fact is distorting history.

Note that the word "ben" means "son of" in Hebrew. Therefore, the name "Shimon Ben Gamaliel" means Shimon the son of Gamaliel.
________________________________________
Passage #1: Ben Stada

Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a

It is taught: R. Eliezer told the sages: Did not Ben Stada bring witchcraft with him from Egypt in a cut that was on his skin? They said to him: He was a fool and you cannot bring proof from a fool.

Ben Stada is Ben Pandira.

R. Chisda said: The husband was Stada and the lover was Pandira.
[No,] the husband was Pappos Ben Yehudah and the mother was Stada.
[No,] the mother was Miriam the women's hairdresser [and was called Stada]. As we say in Pumbedita: She has turned away [Stat Da] from her husband.

Summary

What we see from here is that there was a man named Ben Stada who was considered to be a practicer of black magic. His mother was named Miriam and also called Stada. His father was named Pappos Ben Yehudah. Miriam (Stada) had an affair with Pandira from which Ben Stada was born.

Proof
Some historians claim that Ben Stada, also known as Ben Pandira, was Jesus. His mother's name was Miriam which is similar to Mary. Additionally, Miriam was called a women's hairdresser, "megadla nashaia" [for this translation, see R. Meir Halevi Abulafia, Yad Rama, Sanhedrin ad. loc.]. The phrase "Miriam megadla nashaia" sounds similar to Mary Magdalene, a well-known New Testament figure.
Problems
1. Mary Magdalene was not Jesus' mother. Neither was Mary a hairdresser.

2. Jesus' step-father was Joseph. Ben Stada's step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah.

3. Pappos Ben Yehudah is a known figure from other places in talmudic literature. The Mechilta Beshalach (Vayehi ch. 6) has him discussing Torah with Rabbi Akiva and Talmud Berachot 61b has Pappos Ben Yehudah being captured and killed by Romans along with Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva lived during the second half of the first century and the first half of the second century. He died in the year 134. If Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva's, he must have been born well after Jesus' death and certainly could not be his father.

Send comments and suggestions to gil@talmud.every1.net

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:45 pm
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Genuinely Genius

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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
"what would you say if I told you I was blind?" is a hypothetical question.

In December this was said



lady of shallot wrote:
"After 9/11", oil on canvas, 32 x 40 inches. This painting was done from a small sketch made 5 days after 9/11. As I sat on the rocks looking out to sea the Portland Pilot boat came by flying a large American flag. The sight inspired this painting which, to me, speaks of resolve, courage and hope. 


Stahrwe: this is for your son. My husband painted this as he says above. He was depressed when he went to look at the ocean which gives great solace.

My husband also gives thanks to your son and the many like him who have "kept us safe"





Lady,

thank you and your husband. I am fortunate to live near the Atlantic and views of the ocean are always amazing



Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:59 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Thank you, Lady of Shallot. Just the point I was getting at with the puzzle/contest quote.
So, on the one hand hypotheical questions are allowed and on the other, they are not. Sigh. Always the same.
BTW, am enjoying your comments immensely.


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:10 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Oblivion, thank you for your comment on my posts.
I'm sorry but wifely pride dictates that I amend this statement below:

(Stahrwe) I think Lady of Shallot's husband has some leanings in that direction.

I must take exception to the "leanings" in the above sentence. We have lived many, many years from the proceeds from that "leaning"



Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:27 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Quote:
Vishnu
So there you go, Frank, just in case you were interested in getting a hold of the actual quote, Frank. So, good night, Frank. I guess we'll continue our discussion tomorrow, Frank.

First of all… LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the source… and the quote.

Later


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:34 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Quote:
Oblivion
Frank, Vishnu, Thou, Robert, Interbane,

Re: blindness: do you guys remember this quote--
Quote:
stahrwe
As BT participants we tend to think in terms or poetry, prose, etc. but there might also be some visual art and musical talent out there. I think Lady of Shallot's husband has some leanings in that direction. I think it would be fascinating to see a artisitc interpretation of a variation on the song.

We once again have a typical "turn the words around in my mouth" situation used by trolls. I'm amused.

Yes it is hard to accept the latest claim made by stahrwe… either he is lying, or he has deceived us for a long while now. I mean he suddenly thinks that his “blindness” should excuse him from watching the video and he needs a transcript in order to participate… as Tat said earlier that is idiotic and that is still true weather or not stahrwe is blind.

Here is what stahrwe wrote about how he involves himself on these forums.

Quote:
Stahrwe
You highlight text, move it to MSword or another program which has a reading function.
You dictate responses using DragonSpeech program by Nuance or a similar program, and have your text read back to you for corrections, despite Nuance claims, my program is only ~70% accurate.

So he essentially listens to our writings and with only a 70% accurate program… now what would be the difference if he just listened to the videos?

Well for one he would have a 100% accurate source instead of a 70% accurate transcription… He would not have some of the source material shown on the screen but that probably would not be in a forwarded script either… besides GodAlmighty’s sources are all common sources anyway.

In short, blind or not, stahrwe simply denied watching/listening to the videos because he did not want to… not because he couldn’t.

And if he is blind he should have said something much earlier to avoid any misunderstanding about the videos… but again it was not that he couldn’t watch them but he wouldn’t. Understanding apparently is not... and never has been stahrwe’s objective here.

I will say this though… if stahrwe is blind he certainly has said many things that make it appear that he is not.

Later


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:29 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
lady of shallot wrote:
"what would you say if I told you I was blind?" is a hypothetical question.

Lady,

thank you and your husband. I am fortunate to live near the Atlantic and VIEWS of the ocean are always amazing (from Stahrwe)



Hi Frank, I am quoting my own post above. Emphasis is mine but quote from last December is otherwise correct.



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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:19 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
The question of how early Christianity corrupted its spiritual source ideas into the literal narrative of a historical Christ that we see in the New Testament opens a range of questions in psychology, history, politics and philosophy.

As Tat has argued, one plausible explanation is an outright conspiracy. On this theory, the church was a small and tight knit cabal, somewhat like the Bolshevik Party in Russia, with a political agenda of the overthrow of pagan religion and the establishment of Christianity as a state church. For church leaders, the fable of the historical Jesus was central to their moral legitimacy. As with communism, doctrinal unity and conformity was a prerequisite for political success. As we know from the historical record, the church was almost totally successful in its objective of maintaining dogmatic unity for one thousand years after Emperor Constantine.

A key text here is Matthew 12:25 “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” What this means is that unity requires acceptance of a lowest common denominator, agreement on doctrine that can find consensus among the widest group while still serving the strategic objectives of the organisation. For early Christianity, rather like communism in the nineteenth century, unity of objectives was undermined by doctrinal dissent, for example over whether Paul was a Gnostic. Establishment of the New Testament canon and the orthodox creeds provided a basis for social unity, much as the Westphalian settlement after the thirty years war in 1648 agreed that the prince decides the faith in his territory.

As a variant on this overt conspiratorial theory, a more psychological reading can see the emergence of orthodoxy as an accidental process of recovered memory syndrome. It suited the interests of the church to have a simple faith that everyone could understand, and the cosmic Gnostic spiritual doctrine did not serve this purpose, especially where various sects disagreed on fundamental questions. So, by a steady process of forgetting things that were complicated and ‘remembering’ things that were simple and useful, the literal historical faith evolved. A decisive step in this process was the realisation by the authors of the Gospels that 'the iron was hot' for promulgation of a fictional Christ as fact, and they took full advantage of this historic opportunity.

All this supports the premise that first century Christianity was a highly complex spiritual movement promoting diverse and contestable theories about human salvation. It can readily be compared to the Cambrian explosion 530 million years ago, when a wide range of body shapes evolved but only the most robust and fecund survived. Orthodox Christianity was the most robust and fecund belief system for the cultural and political situation of the Roman Empire, and like a hermit crab was able to take over the institutions the empire had built, hence the durable success of orthodoxy in out-competing all its rivals as an adaptive meme.



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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:39 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
lady of shallot wrote:
lady of shallot wrote:
"what would you say if I told you I was blind?" is a hypothetical question.

Lady,

thank you and your husband. I am fortunate to live near the Atlantic and VIEWS of the ocean are always amazing (from Stahrwe)



Hi Frank, I am quoting my own post above. Emphasis is mine but quote from last December is otherwise correct.

Lady, Stahrwe's full of all sorts of BS. After this "hypothetical" he went on to talk about computer programs for the blind and was on about his Dragon such and such program, attempting to insinuate that he is blind. Maybe he's blind maybe he isn't, but one thing for certain is that he's a bit of a pathological liar!

He was going on and on about how he grew up atheist and believed in evolution and how the evidence of creationism turned him to the bible and on and on. Then later he forgot about it and started talking about how he grew up Christian, had a time of calling himself "atheist", and then went right back to Christianity again. Much like the BS you've outlined above where he was on about the VIEW of the ocean and the bit about art work, only to forget about all that he had been saying and started up the blindness excuse in this thread as some half ass reason for not watching the video series at the top of the thread. Obviously, blind or not, the series could be heard and some one could help out by telling him the sources that are provided on the screen. Oh but wait, having said that out loud he may suddenly become Hellen Keller out of the blue with yet another excuse not to watch the freaking subject of this thread. :lol:


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Last edited by tat tvam asi on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:18 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
edited

When you have done all that, it has been a good day.


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Last edited by stahrwe on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:26 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Quote:
Tat
Maybe his is blind, but one thing for certain is he's a bit of a pathological liar.

Well as you said before he is blind to logic and reason… there is no doubt about that!

Later


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:30 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Tat

I guess 20 pages or whatever is enough.

Who holds the copyrights to the 25 videos for this discussion?


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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Robert Tulip wrote:
All this supports the premise that first century Christianity was a highly complex spiritual movement promoting diverse and contestable theories about human salvation. It can readily be compared to the Cambrian explosion 530 million years ago, when a wide range of body shapes evolved but only the most robust and fecund survived. Orthodox Christianity was the most robust and fecund belief system for the cultural and political situation of the Roman Empire, and like a hermit crab was able to take over the institutions the empire had built, hence the durable success of orthodoxy in out-competing all its rivals as an adaptive meme.


Interesting way of putting it Robert.


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:45 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Quote:
RT
All this supports the premise that first century Christianity was a highly complex spiritual movement promoting diverse and contestable theories about human salvation. It can readily be compared to the Cambrian explosion 530 million years ago, when a wide range of body shapes evolved but only the most robust and fecund survived. Orthodox Christianity was the most robust and fecund belief system for the cultural and political situation of the Roman Empire, and like a hermit crab was able to take over the institutions the empire had built, hence the durable success of orthodoxy in out-competing all its rivals as an adaptive meme.


Remember though, quite a lot of the ideas that were being voiced by early Christianity were also being voiced by historians like Philo, a full century before the Christian writings were written… and had it not been for Constantine legalizing Christianity and it finding its way into the slot of the state/imperial religion it would have probably died out… instead with the might of the Roman Empire on its side it destroyed everything else... including the empire that brought it to power… the child ate the parent in this case!

Later


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:00 pm
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Post Re: The NT was written in the 2nd century
Now after having peaked out, it's going the way of the Dodo...


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:49 pm
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