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The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy) 
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Post The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
I did not know that the Copernican model of planetary motions was prompted by the Islamic Maragha school of Astronomy.

In Toby E. Huff's book, The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West, Huff quotes professor Noel Swerdlow:

Quote:
[it is] not whether, but when, where, and in what form
..,
Copernicus leaned of the Maragha theory

it was "the scientific revolution before the Renaissance"

For those of you with a true appreciation of the development of science here's more about it:
(I have added emphasis)

Quote:
The "Maragha Revolution" refers to the Maragheh school's revolution against Ptolemaic astronomy. The "Maragha school" was an astronomical tradition beginning in the Maragheh observatory and continuing with astronomers from the Damascus mosque and Samarkand observatory. The Maragha astronomers attempted to solve the equant problem and produce alternative configurations to the Ptolemaic model. They were more successful than previous astronomers in producing non-Ptolemaic configurations which eliminated the equant and eccentrics, were more accurate than the Ptolemaic model in numerically predicting planetary positions, and were in better agreement with empirical observations.[5] The most important of the Maragha astronomers included Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi (d. 1266), Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (1201–1274), Najm al-Dīn al-Qazwīnī al-Kātibī (d. 1277), Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi (1236–1311), Sadr al-Sharia al-Bukhari (c. 1347), Ibn al-Shatir (1304–1375), Ali Qushji (c. 1474), al-Birjandi (d. 1525), and Shams al-Din al-Khafri (d. 1550).[6]

Some have described their achievements in the 13th and 14th centuries as a "Maragha Revolution", "Maragha School Revolution", or "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance". An important aspect of this revolution included the realization that astronomy should aim to describe the behaviour of physical bodies in mathematical language, and should not remain a mathematical hypothesis, which would only save the phenomena. The Maragha astronomers also realized that the Aristotelian view of motion in the universe being only circular or linear was not true, as the Tusi-couple showed that linear motion could also be produced by applying circular motions only.[7]

Unlike the ancient Greek and Hellenistic astronomers who were not concerned with the coherence between the mathematical and physical principles of a planetary theory, Islamic astronomers insisted on the need to match mathematics with the real world surrounding them, which gradually evolved from a reality based on Aristotelian physics to one based on an empirical and mathematical physics.[8] The Maragha Revolution was thus characterized by a shift away from the philosophical foundations of Aristotelian cosmology and Ptolemaic astronomy and towards a greater emphasis on the empirical observation and mathematization of astronomy and of nature in general, as exemplified in the works of Ibn al-Shatir, Ali Qushji, al-Birjandi and al-Khafri.[9][10]

Other achievements of the Maragha school include the first empirical observational evidence for the Earth's rotation on its axis by Tusi and Qushji,[11] the separation of natural philosophy from astronomy by Ibn al-Shatir and Qushji,[11] the rejection of the Ptolemaic model on empirical rather than philosophical grounds by Ibn al-Shatir,[5] and the development of a non-Ptolemaic model by Ibn al-Shatir that was mathematically identical to the heliocentric Copernical model...,


An area of active discussion in the Maragheh school, and later the Samarkand and Istanbul observatories, was the possibility of the Earth's rotation. Supporters of this theory included Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, Nizam al-Din al-Nisaburi (c. 1311), al-Sayyid al-Sharif al-Jurjani (1339–1413), Ali Qushji (d. 1474), and Abd al-Ali al-Birjandi (d. 1525). Tusi was the first to present empirical observational evidence of the Earth's rotation, using the location of comets relevant to the Earth as evidence, which Qushji elaborated on with further empirical observations while rejecting Aristotelian natural philosophy altogether. Both of their arguments were later described again by Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543



Examining history defeats oversimplified versions of it popularized by certain individuals, particularly those who create caricatures of religion as being based on blind faith and nothing more.
Reason and evidence were clearly in play during these contributions by Islam.



Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:32 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
The Maragha theory predates the timeline used by Duhem, Jaki, and Trasancos. This further undermines their thesis that science was born of christianity.


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Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:57 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
LanDroid wrote:
The Maragha theory predates the timeline used by Duhem, Jaki, and Trasancos. This further undermines their thesis that science was born of christianity.


If your presumption is that science progressed in a stringent linear fashion then you are likely to commit this common error of reasoning about the "birth of science"

Its a common error though. I cant fault you for it.



Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:13 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
LanDroid wrote:
The Maragha theory predates the timeline used by Duhem, Jaki, and Trasancos. This further undermines their thesis that science was born of christianity.


Ps

Youll say anything to undermine Christianity.

I just knew someone would attack christianity in this post rather than at the very least ask a question about Islam and science.

Unbelievable. :|



Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:17 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
No, that's not my presumption, but I can't fault you for assuming so.
Heh, why is it "unbelievable" to point out this Maragha theory undermines claims made by Duhem, Jaki, and Trasancos? And vice versa: these three totally discount this "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance" to claim christianity as the source of science.


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But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


Last edited by LanDroid on Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:34 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
LanDroid wrote:
No, that's not my presumption, but I can't fault you for assuming so.
Heh, why is it "unbelievable" to point out this Maragha theory undermines claims made by Duhem, Jaki, and Trasancos?


Seriously, no joking:
Im having a hard time taking you serious here.

What are you specifically talking about and what are you trying to accomplish here?
Why should we be using a word like "undermine"?

Obviously the contributions were different. Christianity played a vital role in setting the foundations of science.
But to start claiming that something prior "undermined" Christianity's role is quite puzzling.

And did you even read my comments at the end of the wiki entry?



Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:36 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
Duheme, Jaki, and Trasancos claim that finally, after being in power for well over 1000 years, an important discovery happened in the 1300s that meant christianity gave birth to science. Toby Huff makes stronger claims for earlier and more important discoveries in Islam, the "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance".


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When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
Isaiah 1:15

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:52 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
I disagree.
Which Toby Huff book have you read?

And if that is in fact true that Duheme, Jaki, and Trasancos claim because of one important discovery Christianity gave birth to science, I disagree with their claim as well.



Last edited by ant on Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:45 am
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
I browsed a few scholarly articles, and many employ the theme that Christianity and Islam were parents of science. They mated, or something like that. Both sides like to claim responsibility, in spite of fighting against the conclusions of science. It's like a Jerry Springer show. Science is the damned redheaded stepchild that they claim to love and love to hate.


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Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:31 am
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
Quote:
Both sides like to claim responsibility, in spite of fighting against the conclusions of science


example of a fight and the "conclusions of science" they were fighting over?


sounds inaccurate to me, but I'll give you a chance



Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:01 am
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
Evolution and an old earth. I'm not generalizing. I understand many Muslims and Christians accept evolution and an old earth.


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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
Interbane wrote:
Evolution and an old earth. I'm not generalizing. I understand many Muslims and Christians accept evolution and an old earth.


If you're not generalizing then I'd like a specific example from one of those scholarly articles you've browsed.

I'd like to read it.



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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
ant wrote:
If you're not generalizing then I'd like a specific example from one of those scholarly articles you've browsed.


I don't think you understand. What I'm referring to is the position you always defend, often with articles you link yourself. Why ask for further articles on a position you agree with? I think some of the articles I browsed were ones you supplied. Here are a couple of others. Interesting to read, if nothing else.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-his ... nd-science

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/20 ... ethod.html


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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
If you're not generalizing then I'd like a specific example from one of those scholarly articles you've browsed.


I don't think you understand. What I'm referring to is the position you always defend, often with articles you link yourself. Why ask for further articles on a position you agree with? I think some of the articles I browsed were ones you supplied. Here are a couple of others. Interesting to read, if nothing else.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-his ... nd-science

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/20 ... ethod.html



I'm not familiar with reasons.org or what their exact position is.
I've asked for a specific example and you have stated you are not generalizing.
Give me a specific example from reasons.org - a scientific study - that you anticipate I would defend.

You've also indicated that I often link articles myself related to this. Give me an example of an article I linked that had to do specifically with Christian apologetics and science. At first glance I saw nothing from reasons.org that relates specifically to Christianity and it's relationship to science in history or what my personal views are on the matter.

I am going to read the realclear article. It looks interesting. Thanks for that.

I posted this topic because I thought it would interest some of you that have a very myopic, black and white, cartoonish view of the history of science. Similar to the views of Neils D Tyson (or what he intentionally promoted on COSMOS)
Also, because some of you, including yourself, have stated religion is based on blind faith and is antithetical to science.

Islam's examination of the Ptolemaic model, and its near identical Copernican model was based on sophisticated mathematics, reason, and evidence.
I could give other examples as well. I found this one to be one of the most interesting I recently learned of.

Predictably, two of you are eager to turn this into an anti-Christian crusade again.



Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:08 pm
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Post Re: The Maragha Revolution (Astronomy)
ant wrote:
Give me a specific example from reasons.org - a scientific study - that you anticipate I would defend.


That Christianity is not antithetical to science. Isn't that a position you defend? I don't think I misunderstood you to such a large degree. Or have you changed your stance?

ant wrote:
Also, because some of you, including yourself, have stated religion is based on blind faith and is antithetical to science.


Religion is based on blind faith.

Religion is often antithetical to science. This is true at the same time that there are religious positions that aren't antithetical to science.

Creationism is inherently anti-science. There is no way around this. Creationism is a religious belief. It's fruitless to argue against this. I mean, you can try as you always do, but you'll fail as you always do.


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