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The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuries

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MadArchitect

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The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuries

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Hey, Mr. P, have you gotten around to giving this one a read? After you posted about having gotten it from the library, I got my copy out and started re-reading it. I'm done with the first three chapters.I'm a little worried that there are some differences in our editions, though. You mentioned a final essay called "The Religious Origins of the Enlightenment". That didn't sound familiar to me, and indeed, it isn't in my copy. Maybe it's something appended for a later edition? The table of contents in my copy reads:1. The New Diabolical Religion2. Social Origins3. Intellectual Elaboration4. Supremacy5. Decline6. ConclusionAnyway, even if you don't want to discuss the book or it's subject matter (I've certainly tired of arguing with Frank about it), I'd like to hear what you thought of the book. Maybe you could give a review?
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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Not yet, although I was perusing it last night during the hockey game. I am debating whether to read the whole thing or just the relevant essay.My copy has about 5 different essays, not just the one on the Witch Crazes. Mayhaps I have a compilation of TR's work?I will give my opinions when I read it. I am not good at orderly review type writing, but I will post thoughts.Mr. P. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George CarlinI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Frank 013
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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(I've certainly tired of arguing with Frank about it) Later
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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The real interesting thing about this, Frank, is that Mad has decided that talking to me is better than talking to you!Stop ruining my REP Frank!!! Mr. P. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George CarlinI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Frank 013
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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The real interesting thing about this, Frank, is that Mad has decided that talking to me is better than talking to you!Stop ruining my REP Frank!!! Now that is funny! Later
MadArchitect

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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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misterpessimistic: My copy has about 5 different essays, not just the one on the Witch Crazes. Mayhaps I have a compilation of TR's work?I'm not sure what you have, but it doesn't sound like the book I'm reading. But, yeah, maybe the book I recommended is part of the book you've checked out. If you have a second, maybe you could find a link to a copy on Amazon, so I can take a look and see what the differences are. The real interesting thing about this, Frank, is that Mad has decided that talking to me is better than talking to you!We've had no shortage of disagreements, but if you're willing to actually go out and read a book I've recommended, I figure I at least owe you the courtesy of taking some interest in what you think of it. And the fact that you're willing to look at my sources indicates that you may be a little more willing to assess them as potentially valid. I never got that sense in talking to Frank. He has a position, and any suggestion that another viewpoint might account for more of the facts is just double-talk and comfort to the enemy.
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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Actually mad I find the whole book suspect because it seems (from the way that you quote it) like the author started from the premise of clearing religion and all of its side effects, of all blame in the matter. And while you deny that that is your motive you have held that stance at nearly every exchange.You seem blind to the dangers that religions breed and it shows in your attitude and your topics. You tend to downplay their involvement in the uglier events and beam with delight at their "enlightened" philosophy and cultural accomplishments. This attitude is actually offensive to those of us who have to put up with their "enlightened" bigotry on nearly a daily basis. Later
MadArchitect

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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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Frank: Actually mad I find the whole book suspect because it seems (from the way that you quote it) like the author started from the premise of clearing religion and all of its side effects, of all blame in the matter.So far as I can tell, Trevor-Roper felt no vested interest in clearing religion of anything. He saw a number of problems in accounting for why history should have played out as it did, and his book is devoted to the task of arriving at a reasonable account.I've cited the book in support of my own view of the matter, but that doesn't mean that Trevor-Roper would have agreed with my interpretation. Nor do I recall having portrayed him as sharing my opinion. He spares no criticism on the Dominicans, for example, or the Jesuits, or Luther. If he fails to complacently accept the idea that all blame can ultimately be delivered to Christianity's doorstep, it's because he takes seriously the contradictions that arise in matching that thesis to the actual data before him, and because he had made a lifetime of examing similar outbreaks of mass persecution in all their complexity -- he's well known as a Holocaust scholar.And while you deny that that is your motive you have held that stance at nearly every exchange.I discussed several points on which I thought the Church was culpable. And I've discussed that matter more if I hadn't felt it necessary to spend so much time replying to accusations that I felt were unjustified. But when you're holding the Church responsible for things that the historical record clearly does not attribute to the Church -- like, for instance, the survival of witch belief throughout the medieval period -- I don't really feel any need to offer any more reasons for distrusting the Church.You tend to downplay their involvement in the uglier events and beam with delight at their "enlightened" philosophy and cultural accomplishments.I will cop to having downplayed religions involvement in some of the incidents mentioned in this forum. I think it's justified. Religion gets blamed for a lot of things that study tends to indicate were more complex than the simple relationship some people presume. Religion is also culpable for a lot of things, but if you want me to set the record straight on the evils of religion without bothering to mention the good, count me out.As for me "beaming with delight" the "enlightened philosophy and cultural accomplishments" of religion, my only question is: when? You seem to be confusing me with someone else. Point me to a post in which I've "beamed" about religion. If you really pay attention to the things I've posted to BookTalk, I think you'll realize that my tone has been pretty moderate, and the positive things that I have said about religion make up a really small portion of the whole of what I've said.This attitude is actually offensive to those of us who have to put up with their "enlightened" bigotry on nearly a daily basis.If an attitude as moderate as mine offends you, you must by much beleagured.
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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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Quote:MadI've cited the book in support of my own view of the matter,Well that must be the problem then.Quote:MadI discussed several points on which I thought the Church was culpable. When pressed.Quote:MadBut when you're holding the Church responsible for things that the historical record clearly does not attribute to the Church -- like, for instance, the survival of witch belief throughout the medieval period -- I don't really feel any need to offer any more reasons for distrusting the Church.So the fact that witches are mentioned in the bible and what should be done with them is clearly spelled out is no ones blame then?Quote:MadAs for me "beaming with delight" the "enlightened philosophy and cultural accomplishments" of religion, my only question is: when? In one of the recent threads you mentioned something along the lines of religion being the best tool for building a society. If this is not a glowing recommendation I don't know what is.Quote:MadIf an attitude as moderate as mine offends you, you must by much beleaguered.Na, nowadays it takes danger of loosing life, limb or sight to get me stressed. But it is annoying. Later
MadArchitect

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Re: The European Witch-Craze of the XVIth and XVIIth Centuri

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me: I discussed several points on which I thought the Church was culpable.Frank: When pressed.No; I freely offered them whenever you or Mr. P offered an opinion that I agreed with. Honestly, how could you press me in a medium like this. I can just ignore any passage in your posts that I didn't want to respond to, just as you ignored any in my posts that you say fit.So the fact that witches are mentioned in the bible and what should be done with them is clearly spelled out is no ones blame then?Didn't I agree that the Biblical passages were a seed waiting to sprout? And I think the Church would have done well to have excluded those passages from the Canon.That said, the Church made an active policy, over a period of nearly 1000 years, of discouraging belief in witches, to the point of declaring that belief heretical, and of disallowing the persecution of people accused as witches. To claim, as you did, that the Church fostered witch-belief, provided the witch mythology embodied in the witch-hunting manuals, and spontaneously made a policy of persecuting witches completely ignores the evidence.In one of the recent threads you mentioned something along the lines of religion being the best tool for building a society. If this is not a glowing recommendation I don't know what is.Historically, religion has been instrumental in providing the concepts that go towards the construction of society. But if you go back and look at that thread, you'll notice that my passage was laced with qualifiers. If "religion is a tool that can be used equally well for good or evil" is a glowing recommendation, then I can give equally glowing recommendations to plastic wrap and ball ping hammers. That's hardly beaming.
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