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The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians 
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Post The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
There is a prejudice rampant among certain groups that the Bible not only does not encourage the application of logic, but, actually discourages it. I will leave the enumeration of applicable Bible verses for a different discussion, and instead use this one to introduce the Christians who advanced logic and mathematics, or made significant discoveries.

I chose this forum as the closest, relevant one. Though the description does note including mathematics or logic, they fit the subject.


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Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:44 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
Quote:
Ramon Llull (Catalan: [rəˈmon ˈʎuʎ]; ca. 1232[2] – ca. 1315) (Anglicised Raymond Lully, Raymond Lull; in Latin Raimundus or Raymundus Lullus or Lullius) was a Majorcan writer and philosopher, logician and a Franciscan tertiary. He wrote the first major work of Catalan literature. Recently-surfaced manuscripts show him to have anticipated by several centuries prominent work on elections theory. He is sometimes considered a pioneer of computation theory, especially given his influence on Gottfried Leibniz.[1] Llull is well known also as a glossator of Roman Law.

Reputation and reception after death

Chairs for the propagation of the theories of Llull were set up at the University of Barcelona and the University of Valencia. He is regarded as one of the most influential authors in Catalan; the language is sometimes referred to as la llengua de Llull, as other languages might be referred to as la langue de Molière (French), la lengua de Cervantes (Castilian) or die Sprache Goethes (German).

The logo of the Spanish Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas ("Higher Council of Scientific Research") is Llull's Tree of Science. Ramon Llull University, a private university established in Barcelona in 1990, is named for the philosopher.

Mathematics, statistics, and classification

With the 2001 discovery of his lost manuscripts Ars notandi, Ars eleccionis, and Alia ars eleccionis, Llull is given credit for discovering the Borda count and Condorcet criterion, which Jean-Charles de Borda and Nicolas de Condorcet independently discovered centuries later.[14] The terms Llull winner and Llull loser are ideas in contemporary voting systems studies that are named in honor of Llull.[citation needed] Also, Llull is recognized as pioneer of computation theory, especially due to his great influence on Gottfried Leibniz.[citation needed] Llull's systems of organizing concepts using devices such as trees, ladders, and wheels, have been analyzed as classification systems.[15]

Art and architecture

The inspiration by Ramon Llull's mnemonic graphic cartwheels, reaching into contemporary art and culture, is demonstrated by Daniel Libeskind's architectural construction of the 2003 completed Studio Weil in Port d'Andratx, Majorca. „Studio Weil, a development of the virtuality of these mnemonic wheels which ever center and de-center the universal and the personal, is built to open these circular islands which float like all artwork in the oceans of memory."[16]

Modern fiction

Paul Auster refers to Llull (as Raymond Lull) in his memoir The Invention of Solitude in the second part, The Book of Memory. Llull, now going under the name 'Cole Hawlings' and revealed to be immortal, is a major character in The Box of Delights, the celebrated children's novel by poet John Masefield. He is also a major influence on the fictional character Zermano in Thomas Salazar's The Day of the Bees, and his name, philosophies, and quotes from his writings appear throughout the novel. In Roberto Bolaño's novel 2666, Amalfitano, a Chilean professor, thinks about "Ramon Llull and his fantastic machine. Fantastic in its uselessness."[17] Adán, Leopoldo Marechal's protagonist of the novel Adán Buenosayres (1948), mentions Ramon Lulio when he walks by the "curtiembre" (leather-tanning shop): He says: "Ramon Lulio, que aconsejaba no rehuir del olor de las letrinas a fin de recordar a menudo lo que da el cuerpo de si mismo en su tan frecuentemente olvidada miseria" (Edición Crítica, Colección Archivos, 1997. Page 312) ("Ramon Llull advised not to shy away from the smell of outhouses, in order not to forget that which the body gives out in its often forgotten misery.") In William Gaddis' first novel, The Recognitions, the final paragraph of Chapter II alludes to "Raymond Lully", as a "scholar, a poet, a missionary, a mystic, and one of the foremost figures in the history of alchemy." Llull is also mentioned in passing in Neil Gaiman's comic-book Calliope, an issue of the DC/Vertigo series The Sandman.


Another "Sandman" connection. Recall that Cesterton was a character at Fiddlers Green.

Quote is from Wikipedia.
I did this my Kindle so could no copy url from Wikipedia.I will post it later.


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Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:07 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
Christian mathematicians? The development of math and logic occurred independently of religion. Not sure what you're saying here.


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Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:14 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
We should also have a thread for alcoholic mathematicians, so we can properly acknowledge the contribution of booze to society.



Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:29 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
I would suggest that if BookTalk.org had previously had a discussion claiming that said impaired persons had not contributed to science, logic, statistics, or mathematics. I am not aware of any such discussion. However, I am aware of posts claiming that the Bible does not advocate for logic, and posts claiming that Christians are ignorant and unscientific. The history of contributions to mathematics, statistics, logic and science clearly contradict such claims.

The previous post does not pertain to the subject matter of the initial point regarding Raymond Lull. Instead, it promotes a prejudice against the premise of this discussion. In other posts I have suggested that such inaccurate claims are hurtful; not to Christianity, but to the credibility of the claim.

It really is too bad that these people are not only not appreciated, or known, but when they are mentioned they are dismissed. It never hurts to learn something, and even if their world view is not one you share, that does not mean that their contribution must be dismissed.


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Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:49 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
It is the study of mathematics which lead to advances in mathematics.

Algebra is not islamic, though developed in muslim countries. The compass is not the product of chinese ancestor worship though developed in the Han Dynasty.

there is no such thing as christian physics, only christians who were physicists.

To the extent any advancement is made in science it is to do with the work put forward in that discipline to produce results.


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Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?

Confidence being an expectation built on past experience, evidence and extrapolation to the future. Faith being an expectation held in defiance of past experience and evidence.


Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
stahrwe wrote:
However, I am aware of posts claiming that the Bible does not advocate for logic, and posts claiming that Christians are ignorant and unscientific. The history of contributions to mathematics, statistics, logic and science clearly contradict such claims.


I doubt anyone claimed that Christians cannot contribute to science. But they are doing science, not theology.

If Christians take the Bible literally, then regarding those claims they are ignorant and unscientific.

But you can believe those things and still do math, just like you can believe in Santa Claus and still do math.



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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
When I joined BookTalk.org I was confidently told by several regulars that there was no way that I owned a copy of The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and that there was no way that I could prove that E=MC^2 was derived from F=Ma*. The point is not where algebra originated, or anything else related to either of your posts. The point is that there is a small group of materialists who persist in representing Christians as unintelligent. I can prove that. Stephen Hawking did it in the Curiosity episode on the origin of the universe when he misrepresented Pope John XXI as ignorant and anti-science. I have attached a brief bio of John XXI from an atheist website. Pope John XXI

That derivation was posted in another discussion.


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Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:32 am
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
Starhwe, expect no rational responses here from atheists members, monitors, owner. They are locked into their atheist bigotry against theists, especially Christian ones and you could post the formula for the God Particle and get nothing but slander of your references and yourself--because atheists are not tuned to critical thinking but to red flags that identify a poster as a theist and therefore a target for ad hominen attack. This happens because atheism itself is a fundamentalist belief system that can only be held by ignoring any facts that counter the basic ideology. I speak from experience here trying to get atheists to think logically but it doesn't work with them anymore than it works with fundamentalist Christians or Muslims.



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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
sonoman wrote:
Starhwe, expect no rational responses here from atheists members, monitors, owner. They are locked into their atheist bigotry against theists, especially Christian ones and you could post the formula for the God Particle and get nothing but slander of your references and yourself--because atheists are not tuned to critical thinking but to red flags that identify a poster as a theist and therefore a target for ad hominen attack. This happens because atheism itself is a fundamentalist belief system that can only be held by ignoring any facts that counter the basic ideology. I speak from experience here trying to get atheists to think logically but it doesn't work with them anymore than it works with fundamentalist Christians or Muslims.


Too bad atheism is neither fundamentalist nor a belief system nor an ideology. Other than that, you've got a real handle on the definition.



Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:25 pm
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
In fact atheism is a belief system. As Chesterton said, "If there were no God there would be no atheists."


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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
Atheism most certainly is not a belief system. Is bald a hair color?

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. All you know about an atheist is that they lack the belief in a God or gods. You don't know anything about their actual beliefs. You don't know that they believe a God doesn't exist. They just lack the belief. Everyone on this planet was born without beliefs including the God belief. In other words we were all born as atheists and remained as atheists until we were introduced to the God concept.

I'm an atheist. That tells you what I do NOT believe in. But what DO I believe in? I'm a secular humanist. My beliefs can be studied and understood by learning about the principles of secular humanism. You can't glean anything about my beliefs by pointing at something I don't believe in. I also don't believe in unicorns. Does my lack of belief in unicorns tell you about my beliefs? Of course not.



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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
Chris OConnor wrote:
Is bald a hair color?


nice riposte!



Image



:lol: \goes off to look in mirror at long flowing salt and pepper locks :D



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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
sonoman wrote:
expect no rational responses here from atheists members, monitors, owner. They are locked into their atheist bigotry


then

sonoman wrote:
because atheists are not tuned to critical thinking but to red flags that identify a poster as a theist and therefore a target for ad hominen attack.


pot>kettle>black?

touche!

en guarde.. :lol:

chill out sonoman it's only a movie don't get too into your role :D

c'mon get paxcalibur out and we'll dance with the devil in the pale moonlight :wink:



Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:11 pm
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Post Re: The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians
The point he was making, I thought, was that being, not just a Christian, but a Christian functionary such as a priest or monk didn't prevent some from advancing mathematics, science, and other fields. And obviously that's true. Mendel was a monk, e.g. Surprisingly, Christopher Hitchens acknowledges this in GiNG. It's really odd: sometimes we can see religion (pick any of the big three) acting to retard this kind of progress, other times not impeding it or even fostering it. Islam once wasn't hostile to science and the liberal arts, but that was centuries ago. Christianity has seemed to do quite a lot better. There are the "Dark Ages" to confront, but we'd need to consult a bunch of good historians before we blame that on Christianity.



Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:31 pm
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