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The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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MadArchitect

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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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I'm planning on taking it slow, and the discussion probably will not require anyone to read more than 30 or 40 pages in a week, if even that. When I post the initial thread, take a look at my approach and plan for the whole discussion -- you can decide based on that whether or not you're interested. -----------------"Ain't got a name, just a current address."
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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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Quote:It doesn't look to me that he's offered anything of any particular use to an atheistic viewpoint.I disagree.Quote:So long as it does not hold to be completely rational, it is, at least, built on firmer epistemic ground. Nor could a person holding such a belief maintain, with the Enlightenment mainstream, that Reason is the only valid basis for belief or knowledge. But then, I'd take the argument so far as to say that the claim of ultimate validity for Reason necessarily falls apart any time you press it to far, regardless of whether or not you posit a divine being.I disagree.Quote:You've got your side of things figured out -- I'm constantly working on mine.It is absolutely our different ways of thinking and living that sets us apart. I dont know what it is you do for a living...but most people I know cannot devote a lifetime to learning every nuance of every argument. Sometimes too much research and info leads to stagnation...which your overly verbose and water-muddying explanations are to me. So I take them on when I am able, but not because they compell me to thought. Yes, I have reached conclusions, but that does not mean I am done searching. I just need to be selective in what I choose to explore. My time is prescious to me and others in my life. Reason and secular life is the best way I have found to live a good life. NO argument I have ever heard for religion or faith impresses me. It is a primitive tool for dealing with reality and the unknown of the world around us. It is a crutch.Quote:All birds have wings,Penguins are birds,Thus, all penguins have wingsYou could have saved the excerpt from Chapter 1 of "Introduction to Logic", I knew all that.Quote:my argument is that human knowledge is ultimately hamstrung by its necessary subjectivity, that anything we believe or claim to know is ultimately anchored to assumptions that are irreducible and alogical.So what? What is this supposed to mean? Of course human knowledge is subjective. Just as Ethics and Morality and ANY human endeavor (including logic) is subjective to humans. What does this have to do with reason as opposed to blind faith being a better way to live? It is what we do with the subjective knowledge we obtain that is important...and where reason is better than faith. It is learning as we go and not clinging to primitive thought patterns.As I said before, to me LOOKING under the rock is better than praying to an invisible man (why are most gods men?) to let you know what is under there. Reason over Faith. That is the way I choose. That is the way I have reasoned it is better to live. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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tarav

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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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I believe it was Marti who commented on how quotable Paine is. He surely is! I even found a quote on education. On p 497 Paine comments, "As to the learning that any person gains from school education, it serves only, like a small capital, to put him in a way of beginning learning for himself afterward." I have always felt that my main goal in teaching was to help students become life-long learners. While there is a specific curriculum I teach, I feel that my largest impact on students is giving them what they need so that as Paine says, "Every person of learning is finally his own teacher...".
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I have not made it to that page yet, but this is something I have always thought regarding school. It is for the basics. The real learning comes afterward.And an exceptional teacher absolutely makes all the difference.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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misterpessimistic: So what? What is this supposed to mean? Of course human knowledge is subjective. Just as Ethics and Morality and ANY human endeavor (including logic) is subjective to humans. What does this have to do with reason as opposed to blind faith being a better way to live?I'm not arguing for blind faith -- I've never argued for blind faith, particularly if by blind faith you mean faith in all particulars. My argument is that all systems of human knowledge are founded on faith that is essentially blind, be they religious or secular, and that reason proceeds therefrom. Looking at the form and function of logic, I don't see how any other conclusion is possible. Your premises for any rational argument must come from somewhere, and they cannot come from reason alone. And for that reason, you can never really choose reason over faith with any sort of finality -- it comes down to a matter of choosing when to proceed with reason (rather than from reason) and when to depend on faith.tarav: I believe it was Marti who commented on how quotable Paine is.Yeah, I didn't say anything at the time, but Marti's use of the term "soundbyte" made me think about how we assume that any politician who peppers his argument with soundbyte material probably doesn't have much of an argument behind it. Not that this is necessarily so with Paine, but I thought it important to balance the suggestion that Paine's quotability might connote deeper thought.misterpessimistic : I have not made it to that page yet, but this is something I have always thought regarding school. It is for the basics. The real learning comes afterward.It's in part one, Nick, so you've probably already read it. It must have just slipped your mind.
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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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Sorry about that page number, Nick. Duh! I am reading from The Complete Writings. The quote is in the section "Comparing Christianism With Pantheism".
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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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My edition has NO break points...it is pure text straight through!I need a better edition for my collection.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Quote:It's in part one, Nick, so you've probably already read it. It must have just slipped your mind. So much slips my mind nowadays...I wish I had better retention when reading. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Quote:I just finished reading Part One and felt that the chapter on our solar system was a little wacky(or wonky) too! I dont know...I would have to re-read it, but I found his speculation interesting...and consider that the knowledge back then was not as well rounded as it is today.His thoughts about life on other planets is very inspiring. For as many of us would acknowledge, the probablility of life elsewhere in the universe is more likely than not.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: The Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

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I have typed in my 'highlights' of the book and will post more when I can add my thoughts to the snippets.We can put this discussion on hold and pick up whenever...since we have other discussions going now.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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