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The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality 
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Post The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
I just finished reading Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality by Richard Panek. It is a fascinating look at science, and the business of Science. I don't think that Panek intended to do so but he chronicled the degree to which science follows the money and creates chaos.

The 4% Universe


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Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:50 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
looks interesting. thanks.

also, there is no questions there are motivations of money and prestige within the scientific community.
Peer review has also come into question.


too many gulible laymen are unaware of the internal issues, know next to nothing about justification of knowledge, or simply look to science as a universal authority to replace "god" but are unware of it

its sad.



Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:10 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
Here is a philosopher commenting on bias in science.

http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_b ... ience.html

On the flip side of the coin, many religious people use this sort of information to support their belief that science is wrong in many of it's findings.

"There is bias in science, therefore evolution is wrong and the bible is right." That is a failure on the other end of the spectrum, as bad or worse than thinking science is an infallible oracle. The enterprise may be self-correcting, but we still need to be wary of people using it to pad their wallets.


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Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:31 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
"On the flip side of the coin, many religious people use this sort of information to support their belief that science is wrong in many of it's findings."

on the flip side, many atheists believe science has disproven the existence of a divinity
how on earth fheyve arrived at such a notion is beyond me.



Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:43 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
never mind


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Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:32 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
geo wrote:
never mind


why dont you just speak your mind.
youve done this before. you want to say something.
quite frankly, i want to hear it from you.

so what if someone doesnt agree with you? most likely it will be me, but you will get several "thanks" to offset my ignorance.



Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:46 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
ant wrote:
geo wrote:
never mind


why dont you just speak your mind.
youve done this before. you want to say something.
quite frankly, i want to hear it from you.

so what if someone doesnt agree with you? most likely it will be me, but you will get several "thanks" to offset my ignorance.


Yeah, part of me wants to participate and part of me doesn't. In the end, I really don't have much to offer that I haven't already said on this board many times. It's redundant. So I'll just pass.


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Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:56 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
a lot of whats said in the science / religion posts is redundant.
its a small group and lets face it, i have no one on my side of the fence. but so what?
ive learned a lot.
my angle has always been how science justifies itself and defending religion from being characterized as a mind virus that only leads to people flying planes into buildings. Thats stupid, dont you think?



Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:29 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
ant wrote:
many atheists believe science has disproven the existence of a divinity


let's look at "a divinity" , a particular one i have in mind.

Quote:
"The Sun Stood Still": Joshua's "Long Day"?

The so-called “long day” recorded in Joshua 10:12-14 has generated much discussion among Bible scholars. Before Copernicus’ heliocentric solar system gained acceptance, it was argued that the sun and moon’s orbit was halted. Martin Luther, for example, reportedly denounced Copernicus and declared, “I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, not the earth” (Luther, Table Talk, pp. 358-59; cf. Calvin, Genesis, p. 61). With the advent of modern astronomy and science, however, serious objections were raised against this interpretation. Students of Scripture were forced to re-examine and re-interpret this miracle in a way consistent with the biblical text, the theology of Scripture, and the findings of modern science. ...


the moment you try to take "a divinity" literally you are on the slippery slope all the way down to idiocy.

so it all depends

science definitely disproves much literalist idiocy.



Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:40 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
Here is an interesting portion of one of the reviews:

"The author shows that the prevailing view of the cosmos was incredibly wrong. The truth is that they/we, were missing 96% of the energy and matter of the Universe! Ninety-six percent! In other words in a physics test on the content of the universe the world's top physicists, astronomers, cosmologists on content would find majority of them with a failing grade of only 4%, by way of having never heard of let alone never seen 96% of the matter/Energy of the entire universe. Herein we hear and see as close as possible how the great minds made tremendous discoveries but though suspicious of something missing, were still missing the bulk of this universe."

It got me thinking about how reductionists claim everything ultimatley reduces to physics.
But what if our understanding of what is supposed to be the root of all explanation is wobbly?
How does that reverberate throughout other areas of science, like biology?
Can our foundation wobble without shaking up everything else in ways still unknown because we do not know just how wobbly physics is?



Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:12 pm
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
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It got me thinking about how reductionists claim everything ultimatley reduces to physics.
But what if our understanding of what is supposed to be the root of all explanation is wobbly?


There are faults to ontological reductionism(I nabbed the term from Massimo's blog), but I would check the arguments made for causal completeness before asserting that dark matter mean's it's "all wrong". How many various explanations do you think we could come up with for what dark matter is? It's a great exercise for science fiction plotting, I'd think.

Will the discovery turn out to be an entirely different set of atomic elements, made up of anti-matter and anti-energy? Or could there be even more than two full charts of a "type" of matter? Perhaps the answer is more mundane, perhaps an element we've not yet discovered exhibits properties we could never have predicted(an emergent property, if you will).

Perhaps the paradigm that will resolve dark matter is linked to the issue in harmonizing macro and micro physics. Or a revised understanding of Einstein's work.

It's fun to consider the possibilities. What would your idea be? Or do you think the matter of dark energy is forever insoluble? I think there's an explanation, seeing that the universe has had a history of reveals that match this very pattern. I'm not sure how long it will take, but we'll someday understand it. Then the home of god will move back another gap, as it always has.


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Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:53 am
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
youkrst perpetuates Dawkins' logical sin #1 as identified by Wittgenstein's logical proposition #7 from his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus.


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Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:11 am
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
You love to make up acronyms and rules that seem to support your position, Stahrwe. Being a former literalist himself, I'd say youkrst is qualified to speak about literalism. I pointed out in another thread that Wittgenstein's philosophy has problems of it's own. How do you justify using some of the man's philosophy as a rule that should apply to everyone? I also wonder if you read where Wittgenstein retracts his own propositions as nonsense?


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Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:42 am
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
It got me thinking about how reductionists claim everything ultimatley reduces to physics.
But what if our understanding of what is supposed to be the root of all explanation is wobbly?


There are faults to ontological reductionism(I nabbed the term from Massimo's blog), but I would check the arguments made for causal completeness before asserting that dark matter mean's it's "all wrong". How many various explanations do you think we could come up with for what dark matter is? It's a great exercise for science fiction plotting, I'd think.

Will the discovery turn out to be an entirely different set of atomic elements, made up of anti-matter and anti-energy? Or could there be even more than two full charts of a "type" of matter? Perhaps the answer is more mundane, perhaps an element we've not yet discovered exhibits properties we could never have predicted(an emergent property, if you will).

Perhaps the paradigm that will resolve dark matter is linked to the issue in harmonizing macro and micro physics. Or a revised understanding of Einstein's work.

It's fun to consider the possibilities. What would your idea be? Or do you think the matter of dark energy is forever insoluble? I think there's an explanation, seeing that the universe has had a history of reveals that match this very pattern. I'm not sure how long it will take, but we'll someday understand it. Then the home of god will move back another gap, as it always has.



I didn't intend to assert that. Not in the least.
It may not mean we would have it all wrong. It may mean our theories are partially correct and need more work.

It may be that the expected explanatory beauty is not there. That may be a form of epistemic immodesty on our part.
My armchair guess would be an Einsteinian upgrade by our next Newton/Einstein scientist is needed. We either build on the past or leave the past completely (highly likely it is the former). If too much modification is needed then it would be a new paradigm.

I think the unthinkable (for some people) is possible - that there is a limit to our ability to obtain access to a realm that our finite abilities long to explore.

The home of god?
That's utter nonsense.
You're assuming that a god that might exist is a god that needs the shadows of mystery; like some game of hide-and-seek you call "game over" when you shed light into dark corners that prevent your friend from being seen by you.
I personally believe the unraveling of the intelligibility of the cosmos IS reason to believe. I don't look for god in the shadows.
Our understanding of the cosmos grows as does our understanding in other fields of study. Why not our understanding of a divine essence as well?
Those are personal opinions and nothing more



Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:15 am
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Post Re: The 4% Universe: Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and the Race to Discover the Rest of Reality
Quote:
The home of god?
That's utter nonsense.


It's nonsense? What do you think Stahrwe's motive is for reading the book on dark matter? Where science is weakest, there is room to shoehorn supernatural beliefs. So educate yourself on where science is the weakest.

Quote:
I personally believe the unraveling of the intelligibility of the cosmos IS reason to believe.


It boils down to the same thing. Accusations of "god in the gaps" is often rationalized away because those guilty of it don't connect their own epistemic motives to what the phrase actually means. Gaps in our knowledge, either by a lack of information, or 'unravelling of intelligibility', or a mischievous anomaly. When these things are used as a 'reason to believe', you're guilty of seeking god in the gaps.

When formalized into an argument(which you wouldn't be guilty of since you made it clear it is your opinion rather than an argument), it becomes the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

Quote:
Our understanding of the cosmos grows as does our understanding in other fields of study. Why not our understanding of a divine essence as well?


Because none of the information nor any of the gaps in information support the idea of a divine essence. If your understanding of a divine essence has increased, I'd ask how. What, specifically, is the understanding that you've gained? The only sense in which it works is that you have an increased understanding of what the divine essence "isn't", and what the divine essence isn't 'reponsible for', and where the divine essence may potentially have interacted with our universe. Note that each of these points, if formalized, are guilty of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. There is no 'positive' evidence for any of it; only 'negative' evidence against contrary worldviews.


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Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:26 pm
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