Interbane wrote: It is the best method of producing knowledge in human history.

No it's not, absolutely not. Science is merely the observation of the observable universe. The observable universe is nothing more than a creation of your mind. The true universe exists within you so the best method of producing knowledge in human history is meditation, looking deep within yourself. Everything out here in the external world is merely a distraction and your own subjective creation. To say that this distraction is the best method we have of producing knowledge is silly, but I understand that you have been indoctrinated to believe such silly things. I'm sure it's just purely coincidental that your indoctrination also teaches you that you are a worthless accidentally created meat and flesh body that only exists to work as a debt slave in a system that has disdain for you, be a good consumer to keep the system going, and reproduce indoctrinating your children into schools (aka brainwashing stations for the youth) so they will live the same meaningless life as you because the whole purpose of life is to gain as much material wealth as possible even though you can't take any of it with you when you die and your stay on this planet is very short.....

Interbane wrote:What the ancients knew about the cosmos is a drop in the ocean of what we know today. They may have had exceedingly keen insights that have been lost to time, but those would be exceptions, not the rule.

What the ancients knew is the ocean and your understanding of today is a drop. I don't believe that the historical records are accurate at all. In the past existed many great civilizations going much further back than what is believed today and they were far more advanced than today. Ancient wisdom teaches that thought is the creative force in the universe and it is thought that creates matter this is why they had a much better understanding of the true nature of reality than scientists of today. Think about it we can't even duplicate a simple pyramid which has withstood earthquakes for thousands of years ect… and you haven't even started to understand their purpose or how they could be so perfectly aligned to the stars.

Interbane wrote:Evolution doesn’t predict the rise and fall of civilizations. Where did you read this? Evolution does account for massive speciation events,however, even if you’re in the phyletic gradualism camp instead of the punctuated equilibrium camp.

Yes, I know it doesn't predict anything to do with civilization, but people assume that since we were supposedly dumb primates in the past as we slowly evolve we slowly get smarter devising more technologies and cultures. This is not true. More advanced cultures come into existence quickly bringing with them technologies and innovations and then they slowly degrade over time the exact opposite of what you would expect to happen.

Interbane wrote:Just like assumptions, everyone has a worldview. Why do you mention this like it’s some secret? And what makes you think some worldviews aren’t vastly more truthful than others? We can keep going on this thread, and I can make a strong case that metaphysical naturalism far more verisimilitude than any other worldview.

I continue to mention it because you are still assuming there is some kind of objective truth. What you believe will have profound effects over the reality you experience. There is no objective truth for your science to study. I believe they call it the hard problem and the observer effect. You are extremely powerful and people of the past that didn't have all your limiting beliefs were capable of tremendous feats which have become myth and legend of today.

Interbane wrote:You missed my previous point that many of these gadgets would simply not work unless we had an understanding of the cosmos. GPS from Satellites and the theory of relativity, for example. Nearly any electronic gadget and electromagnetism. Everything from fluid dynamics to evolutionary biology to geology, we create stuff by virtue of understanding how the world works.

Like a holographic man trapped inside a hologram you cleverly manipulate the objects inside the hologram, but it doesn't mean you have any understanding about the true nature of reality or what exists outside the hologram and where the projector is. The only way to get there is as I already said, to go deep within yourself because that is where the true universe exists.

Interbane wrote:Right, science is a vast conspiracy funded by private interests. I mean no disrespect personally, but if you think this is true you’re delusional.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just business.

Interbane wrote:I’m guessing your idea of science as a conspiracy only applies to evolution? I mean, do you doubt existing knowledge of how aurora borealis works? Or photosynthesis? Or Volcanos? Sweeping dismissals may be emotionally appealing for you in pushing your esoteric worldview, but why not give some details? Is there some mistake in the periodic table we don’t know about? Is visible light not actually between 400 and 700 nanometers on the EM spectrum? Were the gravity waves sensed last year actually something else?
I enjoy discussing the philosophy of science, and will continue in this thread. But unless you have some specific examples of where you find issue, I’m going to ignore it as emotional language with no substance.

I don't think science itself is a conspiracy, but certain areas are manipulated by the powers that be. The rulers of this planet that have 99% of the wealth have chosen a worldview that they want to push onto the masses plain and simple. Scientists are indoctrinated into this world view as children, and taught it in all their schooling leading up to becoming scientists. If they go along with it and make scientific advancements that maintain the status quo they will have a great career. If they go against it their career will be destroyed. If right now you could make a replicator that could synthesize any food you wanted by rearranging atoms you would think that would be a blessing to humanity and could end world hunger. Most likely you would be killed and the technology seized and hidden. You can call it a conspiracy if you want, but it is absolutely true that powerful people get together and "conspire" about how to increase their power. These powerful people don't care about the aurora borealis, photosynthesis, or volcanos, but they do care about maintaining the scientific worldviews they themselves have put in place like the idea of a big bang and evolution. I already addressed why they created these ideas, because they take power away from you. The rulers of the planet don't believe any of this scientific nonsense themselves that is for the slaves, they practice blood rituals and magic.

Interbane wrote:It’s amazing to think about, sure. But I don’t see what logic is defied, or what’s paradoxical about it. I don’t think we understand how things came to be well enough to make these assumptions.

To me I see it as a complete paradox that makes no sense and defies all logic. There are only two options. One, source just popped into existence. Two, source has always existed with no beginning and no end. Either is impossible and the fact that we are having this conversation is a miracle.

No it's not, absolutely not. Science is merely the observation of the observable universe. The observable universe is nothing more than a creation of your mind. The true universe exists within you so the best method of producing knowledge in human history is meditation, looking deep within yourself. Everything out here in the external world is merely a distraction and your own subjective creation. To say that this distraction is the best method we have of producing knowledge is silly, but I understand that you have been indoctrinated to believe such silly things. I'm sure it's just purely coincidental that your indoctrination also teaches you that you are a worthless accidentally created meat and flesh body that only exists to work as a debt slave in a system that has disdain for you, be a good consumer to keep the system going, and reproduce indoctrinating your children into schools (aka brainwashing stations for the youth) so they will live the same meaningless life as you because the whole purpose of life is to gain as much material wealth as possible even though you can't take any of it with you when you die and your stay on this planet is very short.....

I forgot what it's like talking to a nihilist. This reminds me of a quote I see circulating social media from time to time.

"Do you ever have a problem where you just don't know how to reply to an argument, not because you don't know the answer, but you just don't know where to begin? Like, the foundation of knowledge you'd need to impart to this person before you could even begin to drag them out of their sinkhole of ignorance would cost thousands of dollars if it were coming from a university?"

I was something of a nihilist once, maybe 15 years ago before reading copious amounts of philosophy. Maybe some of the questions I began asking myself will help get you on track. Not that I expect anything to stick... I remember the feeling. The shoe in the door is typically morality. Here's some questions:

-Why don’t you just convince me to believe you by meditating about it? Am I a real person, or do I only exist in your head? Does that mean you’re arguing with yourself?

-If the true universe only exists inside your head, then do I need to abide by your moral code? Do I have my own moral code? Does everyone have their own moral code?

-If I learn how to be a good person, is that just a distraction? I should ignore it and look inside myself to my own desires, even if they contradict what I've learned from parents and mentors is good and moral behavior? Do I worry about the feelings of my children? Or are they also just a distraction? Should I feed them when they’re hungry?

-If the external world is a distraction and the true universe exists within myself, would you advise jumping off a building or driving off a cliff? Quitting my job? Polluting as a means of removing distracting trash from my immediate environment, even if it means that trash is now someone else’s burden?

-If you and I can both look at a handful of rocks, agree on the quantity, and agree without any uncertainty, then is our agreement merely coincidence? Or is our agreement tethered to something outside our individual subjective realities? Wherever people agree on something with certainty, is that connection entirely within each person's head, or is there something objective tying it together?

Interbane wrote:I forgot what it's like talking to a nihilist.

I have no idea what your talking about. I am not a nihilist nor have I said anything to insinuate that I might be. I think you're not understanding my meaning at all, but interpreting what I'm saying to mean something more familiar to you.

Interbane wrote: -Why don’t you just convince me to believe you by meditating about it? Am I a real person, or do I only exist in your head? Does that mean you’re arguing with yourself?

I think what your talking about now, again averting what I said, is solipsism which is different than nihilism... Allow me to clarify.

I do not believe that I am the only one that exists or that you are a creation of my mind. Maybe I have been inferring too much in what I said earlier and have not been precise enough so I will break this down fully as I understand it. Source Consciousness is sending out its infinite emanations. We are glowing balls of conscious energetic awareness which is receiving these emanations that you call sensory data similar to the brain in a vat scenario. As we receive this sensory data from source we are processing the data through the filters of our beliefs. We then project that onto our walls of perception and experience those beliefs as reality. This is why there are ancient terms like: As you believe so shall you perceive.

If thought is the creative force in the universe, and it is, then it would reason that your beliefs would shape and mold reality according to your beliefs as you exercise thought to create and thus you have just stumbled upon another ancient teaching, The Triune God.
The Mind, the body, and the spirit. The father, the son, and the holy ghost. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The spirit contains the mind, and the mind gives birth to the body. The ancients were teaching you the fundamentals about how creation works and all life operates.

What you believe is an integral part of creation, now you are starting to understand why what you believe is so important. This is why dark insidious forces are at work to control your beliefs and give you a false world view about what is really going on on this planet. You may call it a conspiracy if you like, but conspiracy theorist is a term they coined to label anyone who spreads truth they don't want you to remember. You believe you are so insignificant that nobody would care what you think, but the exact opposite is true. You are such an important powerful creative being that there is literally a war for your mind that your not even aware of and your fed false world beliefs like evolution constantly to keep you confused about what and who you are so you don't realize your true power and utilize it.

The other souls that you experience here are just as real as you, and they are doing the same thing as you. Just as you are at the center of your reality creating it, they are at the center of theirs creating theirs. When the two of you come together there is a telepathic merging of your realities, just as our realities are merging now in the form of this conversation where we are sharing ideas. The reason that people's realities appear to be similar is because at the base of reality is the fundamental emanations that we are all receiving from source. It is also possible to begin to tap into different emanations and start to perceive realities vastly different from quote "normal perception" and some have used hallucinogenic power plants to aid them to achieve this, but you can also do so through meditation alone.

You are not 4 billion people on a ball randomly accidentally evolving. You are an extremely powerful energetic consciousness which is creating your subjective reality sharing your creation with others that are doing the same thing. The way you treat these others is extremely important and you should have compassion for all living things because we are all intricately connected.

I have no idea what your talking about. I am not a nihilist nor have I said anything to insinuate that I might be. I think you're not understanding my meaning at all, but interpreting what I'm saying to mean something more familiar to you.

Oh don't be difficult. Solipsism and Nihilism are first cousins. All my replies are still relevant. You're like everyone else with false beliefs, you refuse to answer questions.

You are such an important powerful creative being that there is literally a war for your mind that your not even aware of and your fed false world beliefs like evolution constantly to keep you confused about what and who you are so you don't realize your true power and utilize it.

Yet how arrogant are you to think you're right and I'm wrong? All of my previous questions are still valid.

I'll add some questions. Try answering them all(please).

-The incoming "data"... is it alterable, or is it fixed?
-If this data is fixed, then does it mean it comes from a fixed source?
-If this source is fixed, is there some objective anchor to our perceptions?
-In what way does the filter of our belief change this incoming data, if this incoming data is fixed?
-If our filter of belief changes this incoming data, how do we agree upon things with certainty?
-Is the "source emanation" perhaps objective reality, but rather than being an emanation, we're merely experiencing the universe around us as participants within it?

Interbane wrote:-The incoming "data"... is it alterable, or is it fixed?

It is alterable because it is coming from source consciousness, but source consciousness is not just sending out one data stream, it is sending out an infinite amount.

Source consciousness is sentient and can alter it, but because we are a part of source consciousness we can also alter it. We also have the ability to change which data stream we are interpreting. Shamans have called these "incoming data" streams the eagles emanations. There is something critical about this incoming data stream that it seems like your missing. By itself the data stream is literally nothing it is not an objective reality. It requires a conscious being like you to receive it, interpret it, and manifest it for something quote, "real" to be created. Otherwise the data stream is perhaps just untapped potential.

Interbane wrote:-If this data is fixed, then does it mean it comes from a fixed source?

Though the data is not fixed, the source is fixed. Source consciousness is the fixed source. Source consciousness is the paradox we spoke about earlier because either it has always existed, or it unexplainable popped into existence, but either way it's existence is a logical impossibility and yet it still exists.

Interbane wrote:-If this source is fixed, is there some objective anchor to our perceptions?

Yes the source is fixed and yes it is anchored to us. We are intricately and directly connected to source consciousness because we are a part of it that is why we have the same creative powers as it does. Source Consciousness divided itself like a cell to create all of us, this gave us a new and unique perspective. It is also what gave us the illusion of being separate from source. You are so special because there is not another soul in existence that has the same perspective as you.

Interbane wrote:-In what way does the filter of our belief change this incoming data, if this incoming data is fixed?

The incoming data is not fixed, but similar to the law of attraction, you are unconsciously choosing which data stream you will tap into based off of your beliefs. Because you are a part of source consciousness you also have the power to directly change the way you are interpreting the data for example the stereotypical bending a spoon with your mind or anything you can imagine. Almost nobody alive today has strong enough beliefs to do this because we are being bred to be powerless and helpless always looking for a savior to come rescue us and blaming others for all the problems we have created for ourselves.


Jesus said, "If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ’Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Now I don't even consider Jesus to be a real man that lived, but this statement is literally true, but we have lost this power because we have become unconscious perceivers allowing others to manipulate our beliefs.

Interbane wrote:-If our filter of belief changes this incoming data, how do we agree upon things with certainty?

We don't agree upon things with a certainty. We are under the false assumption that other people's realities are the same as ours. The internal dialogue running in your head which keeps repeating your beliefs to you will shape your reality. I will give you a simple example. There is a girl and when everybody looks at her they think she is nice and beautiful, but when she looks in the mirror she thinks of herself as being horrible and ugly. Because of her beliefs she will manifest into her reality many awful things and experiences that will reflect back to her that she is in fact horrible and ugly. Maybe she will do horrible things to people that love her because she doesn't think she is worthy of their love and maybe she will manifest into her life a man that beats her and tells her how horrible and ugly she is. What you believe you will perceive. You may consider this reality to be a mirror reflecting back at you the things you believe about yourself.

interbane wrote:-Is the "source emanation" perhaps objective reality, but rather than being an emanation, we're merely experiencing the universe around us as participants within it?

The source emanations are coming from a conscious sentient being that is alive and fully aware of you as being a part of it.

To say that you are experiencing the universe around you as a participant within it in my opinion is completely backwards. That is like saying that the son begets the father. The father, mind, creates the son, body. The universe literally exists within you, I mean literally. When you look out there into space where all the glowing lights are that you call stars, that is not where the universe is. The universe is literally inside of you waiting for you to explore it.

Magus wrote:Science is merely the observation of the observable universe. The observable universe is nothing more than a creation of your mind. The true universe exists within you so the best method of producing knowledge in human history is meditation, looking deep within yourself. Everything out here in the external world is merely a distraction and your own subjective creation. To say that this distraction is the best method we have of producing knowledge is silly, but I understand that you have been indoctrinated to believe such silly things.

I think we should all perform a little experiment. Go find an apple tree and stand under a branch, and then have a helper (spouse, friend, or child) climb up and drop an apple on your head. This will prove either: a) gravity is real or b) we are are indoctrinated to believe in silly things. I'll check in later with my results.

geo wrote:

Magus wrote:Science is merely the observation of the observable universe. The observable universe is nothing more than a creation of your mind. The true universe exists within you so the best method of producing knowledge in human history is meditation, looking deep within yourself. Everything out here in the external world is merely a distraction and your own subjective creation. To say that this distraction is the best method we have of producing knowledge is silly, but I understand that you have been indoctrinated to believe such silly things.

I think we should all perform a little experiment. Go find an apple tree and stand under a branch, and then have a helper (spouse, friend, or child) climb up and drop an apple on your head. This will prove either: a) gravity is real or b) we are are indoctrinated to believe in silly things. I'll check in later with my results.

Better yet, have someone chop the tree down and let it fall on you. Tell me whether you now conclude that the tree was just a creation of your mind. Hopefully, you'll still be alive to tell us your conclusions.

Source consciousness is sentient and can alter it, but because we are a part of source consciousness we can also alter it.

So you question evolution because you think it's based on shaky foundations, yet you think there's some universal sentience all around us feeding us streams of consciousness. And the entire universe is literally inside each of us.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for that to be true. It would mean there's a sort of magic to the world. The problem is it's so blatantly false and absurd that I can't help being disdainful.

Interbane wrote:

Source consciousness is sentient and can alter it, but because we are a part of source consciousness we can also alter it.

So you question evolution because you think it's based on shaky foundations, yet you think there's some universal sentience all around us feeding us streams of consciousness. And the entire universe is literally inside each of us.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for that to be true. It would mean there's a sort of magic to the world. The problem is it's so blatantly false and absurd that I can't help being disdainful.

If the universe is inside us then we could and would learn by self-inquiry. But if I don't know something, I cannot inquire into it. If I do know something, I also cannot inquire into it. The conclusion is that I learn from some other method than self-inquiry and so there has to be an external world. That our sense-organs are fickle and consciousness is the ground floor of all existence does NOT give us the freedom to conclude that everything is just this illusion that we can change anytime we want to or we would be doing it by now.

Interbane wrote:So you question evolution because you think it's based on shaky foundations, yet you think there's some universal sentience all around us feeding us streams of consciousness. And the entire universe is literally inside each of us.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for that to be true. It would mean there's a sort of magic to the world. The problem is it's so blatantly false and absurd that I can't help being disdainful.

That's right, there is real magic to the world, and the only limitations of what is possible is your imagination. I am not the originator of any of the knowledge I am sharing here, it is ancient wisdom that has been known for countless generations and suppressed. I don't ask you to believe anything I have said we can agree to disagree if you like, just know that in my opinion science is fundamentally flawed because it is operating off the assumption that there is a physical objective reality to study, when that is not true. Thought is the creative force in the universe, all is mind, and nothing exists outside of it.

As above, so below. As within, so without. "Whatever we see everyday in outer reality is actually nothing more than a projection of our own inner reality." - Lama Yeshe

DB Roy wrote:If the universe is inside us then we could and would learn by self-inquiry.

We do learn by self inquiry, in fact, that is the only way we learn.

DB Roy wrote:But if I don't know something, I cannot inquire into it.

You are intricately connected to the source of everything, so therefore you know everything. It is simply a matter of remembering that which you already know.

DB Roy wrote: If I do know something, I also cannot inquire into it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

DB Roy wrote: That our sense-organs are fickle and consciousness is the ground floor of all existence does NOT give us the freedom to conclude that everything is just this illusion that we can change anytime we want to or we would be doing it by now.

People are doing it, they change their subjective realities in profound ways every day.

Your own science is telling you that all objects that appear solid are actually empty space being held together by a mysterious force they don't understand. The mysterious force is thought, intention.