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Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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Chris OConnor

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Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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Maybe I'm just an asshole, but statements such as the below really piss me off."It's just terrible. Say a prayer," said Lisa Pattni, an aide at the crash site. The aide said this in reference to Senator Wellstone dying in a plane crash today. Why in the hell would anyone say a prayer after the man, his wife, and daughter plunged from the sky and slammed into the ground at over 300 mph? Is God going to undo his decision to destroy this family?Faith blows my mind. Completely and utterly. I'll say a prayer alright. The prayer will be that people learn to accept that life is not fair. People die. Good people die horribly painful deaths for no apparent reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My prayer is that people learn to deal with reality without needing to fabricate an invisible superhero up in the sky that loves them and is watching over them at all times. What a crock of shit.Chris "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."
Drunkenblade of Kay

Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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Well said Chris! I find it ironic that prayer is so petitionary. Even worship and praise to God serves the purpose of increasing ones celestial standing. Prayer is fundamentally self-interested. If you follow this to its logical extention, the truly altruistic individual is the person who *refuses* to pray.What makes me even more sick is the likelyhood that Say a Prayer was just political manuevering. My sense of disgust is compounded by the intentional manipulation of public ignorance for political gain. In this case, it was just an aide, but the fact remains, politicians will say whatever it takes to get votes and you can be sure they will cash in when people are most sympathetic.
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LanDroid

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Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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A tragedy happens and people want to pray, perhaps just to feel better, perhaps in the hope that they didn't suffer in death, that the remaining family is gets through it, or even that their Spiritual passage into Death was smooth. In the grand sceme, it might be a waste of time, but why get so riled up about it? Take a chill pill - Sheesh! I can understand someone who says "I don't know if God(s) exist or not", but your Faith that God does not exist is unusually fervent.
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Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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I agree with Lan that it was a prayer for the surviving friends and family, not the deceased. Its a nice gesture, even if its very likely a hollow one.More importantly, a question: Would they have said say a prayer if the dead senator had been atheist?
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Chris OConnor

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Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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My view...It doesn't matter if this aide was suggesting people say a prayer for Wellstones survivors or for the continued prosperity and happiness of all the sea horses in Norway. The point I'm making is that prayer is indeed a shallow gesture. No matter whom a person prayers for, the prayer doesn't work - meaning the actual prayer is not the cause of the effect. Prayers never work more than what one would expect from chance alone. They can't work.I know my post was a bit explosive and emotional, but thats me. Here I am reading about how this man and his wife and daughters plunged from the sky and died, and then I have to listen to magic-talk. Why would God intervene and answer peoples prayers by helping the surviving family members cope, yet he is responsible for yanking the plane out of the sky and crashing it into the ground in the first place. To me this is like formally requesting that the DC sniper send some flowers to the families of his victims. So God helps students get good grades, yet kills their parents in car crashes. God makes peoples headaches go away right in time for an exciting football game, yet allows bullets to rip off the faces of their God-loving neighbors. God gives one man the personal strength to scale a 90 degree rock cliff, yet saps the will to live out of another man who slowly succumbs to cancer and dies.Faith is a big cop out in life. It enables people to treat this life like an insignificant stepping-stone to bigger and better things, and to avoid personal responsibility for their actions or lack of actions. I should say, faith is disenabling. Prayer in general vexes me to no end. I've seen too much pain and anguish in my life that could have been avoided had adults acted like adults and taken responsibility for their lives.I was going through a personal crisis months ago and my wifes mother used a line on me that will always stick with me I imagine. Her response to the difficulties between her daughter and me was, "What can I do Chris? All I can do is pray." What about acting like a mother and communicate with your daughter? No, instead my wifes mother thought it best to retreat to quiet solitude and say a few vain repetitions in hopes of influencing the Big Guy(TM) in some way. One could say, "Ahhh, but Chris, her heart was in the right place." Maybe so, but her brain was/is clearly derailed. What if Hitler felt in his heart that he was doing the best thing possible for humanity to exterminate the Jews? As long as his heart was in the right place we should sit back and accept his behavior?Then again, this aide suggesting we pray wasn't doing any harm, was it? Sure it is. Not explicit harm. Nobody would read her words and then quit higher education in favor of becoming a preist, but harm is always done when the world is given the message that "hoping" for something actually can make it happen.Chris "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure." Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/27/02 2:33:11 am
Andonicus

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"Faith is a big cop out in life."Loaded statement, Chris. It reminds me of a question put to J. Krishnamurti, who was asked about the purpose of faith in life. His response was, "Why do I need to have faith? If the truth is right in front of me, what is the point of faith?"People seem to want to avoid the fact of death at all costs. Ando
Drunkenblade of Kay

Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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A tragedy happens and people want to pray, perhaps just to feel better, perhaps in the hope that they didn't suffer in death, that the remaining family is gets through it, or even that their Spiritual passage into Death was smooth. In the grand sceme, it might be a waste of time, but why get so riled up about it?Well, why do we get so riled up about it? That is a very legitimate question, Landroid. You indicated that the act of praying helps people feel better, helps ease suffering, and helps us cope with death, all of which are ennobling and beneficial goals. The problem, however, is the perception that these purposes are inextricably and most appropriately linked with religion. It's easy to read Chris's criticism of prayer and conclude that it is also a criticism on the ennobling purposes associate with prayer when it is not. This is the reason we get so riled up about things. Religion and religious activity has integrated itself with many commendable endeavors, but when you reduce it to it's fundamental core, the things which most endear us to religion are non-essential. The implication of this is that religion is not necessary to those things which have been used to justify it.
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Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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God is not responsible for that plane going down, possibly a mechanic missed something. Like the famous question "Where was God when {insert crisis} happened?"Answer: "Where was Man?""Prayers never work more than what one would expect from chance alone. They can't work."As I said before, the amount of Faith you place in your Metaphysical opinions is unusually fervent.
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Re: Sen. Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash

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Andonicus:How is "Faith is a big cop out in life." a loaded statement? I'm not sure I understood your response.LanDroid:Quote:God is not responsible for that plane going down, possibly a mechanic missed something. Like the famous question "Where was God when {insert crisis} happened?"I'm aware that God wasn't responsible for the plane going down. Neither was the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairey. The aircraft went down for natural reasons, no matter what those reasons were.But my point seems valid. If God intervenes at one time he can intervene at another. If prayers can be answered then God should be preventing much of the crap that happens every day.Why do people assume a deity will answer prayers? Where is the evidence? Is the theory that God allows nature to run its course, but in those situations where he gets an incoming prayer request he will intervene? So the plane went down due to natural causes, but since that aide suggested people "say a prayer," and lets assume many people did as instructed, God will now do something to positively impact the world? Why doesn't he do it without the prayer?So tell me...what happens when a kid is riding his bicycle down the street and a car nails him from behind. The kid didn't see it coming so had no time to say a prayer. Too bad for the child. He is dead. God only intervenes when he is requested via prayer.I just don't get it. I've struggled my whole life with this. Bad shit happens every day to good people with no apparent sense to it all. After it happens the faithful pray to God as if he gives a crap. But what about all those prayers at dinner time prior to the bad event occuring? "God bless Timmy, and Mikey, and Susie, and mommy and daddy..." Then a train comes and wipes out half of them! What happened here?Then again...God works in mysterious ways. So mysterious that not one single person has ever figured out his ways enough to explain them to the rest of the world. No, people just go on with their silly prayers as if they will do some good.I have a funny feeling Wellstone and his wife and daugters calld out to God the moment the plane started on the death dive into the mountainside. Why did God ignore their pleas? Could it be that God ignores everyone everytime because there is no God?Pretty harsh thought I know. Only if the God belief is well-ingrained in your head. To me it all makes perfect sense. Things happen exactly like you would expect them to happen if there was not a loving God. Everything I see in nature makes perfect sense when you get rid of the loving deity concept. But ouch it hurts to have to consider the possibility that we are on this ball of rock and will die on this ball of rock. We aren't going to heaven. We aren't going to see our dead loved ones. People will someday soon after our death forget we even existed. Ouch.Chris "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure." Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/27/02 2:17:02 pm
Drunkenblade of Kay

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Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell the blood of a postmodernist!
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