Feyerabend goes on to discuss the ‘second ingredient’ and remarks that "the second ingredient means that scientific results, wrongly interpreted, may injure human beings.... [it] further implies that questions of fact and reality depend on questions of value. For positivists this is an unfamiliar and even repulsive idea, but only because he is not aware of his own normative prejudices... Thus the church was not only on the right track when measuring reality by human concerns but it was considerably more rational than some modern scientists and philosophers who draw a sharp distinction between fact and values and then take it to for granted that the only way of arriving at facts and, therefore, reality, is to accept the values of science."
Feyerabend
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Original discussion thread for "SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY"
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stahrwe
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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Interbane
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
Why do you withold the intentions of your comments? Speak what you mean, and include all necessary information.Stahrwe wrote:If the Condemnations of 1277 are NO longer significant, Why Did Stephen Hawking feature them in the episode of Curious which he hosted a couple of years ago, and why did he mischaracterize John XXI?
To answer your question, Stephen Hawking could very well have been a fool. Who knows? Are we to consider Stephen Hawking an expert on medieval history? What do your questions have to do with anything? The condemnations of 1277 are significant or insignificant based on what effects they had at the time. Not on whether or not a 21st century physicist spoke about them on TV.
Yes, you did. You said: "The translation movements undertaken by Christianity and Islam were monumental in both preserving and building natural philosophy into what we today call "science""ant wrote:Actually, I didn't even come close to saying that.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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ant
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
Yes, you did. You said: "The translation movements undertaken by Christianity and Islam were monumental in both preserving and building natural philosophy into what we today call "science""[/quote]ant wrote:Actually, I didn't even come close to saying that.
You asked if I'm claiming Christianity gave rise to naturalism.
I said Christianity AND Islam contributed to the preservation and building (progress) of natural philosophy.
If you dont recognize the subtle difference (actually it's not even subtle, it's obvious) then maybe discussing matters like these is not for you.
Last edited by ant on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Interbane
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
Sure ant. I don't see the obvious difference you're referring to. But maybe I'm just dumb.If you dont recognize the subtle difference (actually it's not even subtle, it's obvious) then maybe discussing matters like these is not for you.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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ant
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
If you'd like we can start a new thread and argue about that one sentence that's wrapped itself around your neck.
I think it's a great way to steer the conversation in another direction.
I'm nearing my limit reading 3rd grade history and whiggism from certain posters here.
I think it's a great way to steer the conversation in another direction.
I'm nearing my limit reading 3rd grade history and whiggism from certain posters here.
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geo
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
Wait, what? You take one sentence of my entire post and ignore the broad view context provided by Will Durant, and I'm the one doing a blanket description of religion's interaction with science.ant wrote:No modern historians recognize the validity of that claim.As such the Galileo affair is actually a pretty good illustration of the historic clash between the Church and the intellectual movement at the onset of the Enlightenment
You simply are using a cause celebre to provide a blanket description of a religion's interaction with science across time.
The Galileo Affair had much, much more involved than what you are fallaciously asserting.
It's very easy to see how your summary of the affair is so water-down and superficial that it leaves out key context.
Of course the Galileo affair is far more complex than religion is bad, science is good. This is your strawman entirely. I’m saying the Galileo Affair is much more involved than what you are fallaciously asserting. (Galileo was subjected to "hospitable" house arrest, it was his fault, etc.) I was responding to your comments.
Certainly the Galileo affair has been overused as a symbol of the clash between science and religion But you have to admit, the Inquisition doesn't exactly represent the Church at its finest hour, right? Right? They did burn people for heresy. There ain't no sugarcoating that.
But neither have I ever said that the Galileo affair is representative of the role of religion throughout human history. It would never occur to me to even think in such ridiculous black-and-white terms. I could point to many previous posts where I argue how silly it is to look back in history and try to score points for your team, but hey what's the point if you're just going to make up my position for me.
Last edited by geo on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stahrwe
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
Durant's Story of Philosophy was published early in the 20th century. It predates Dr. Stanley Jaki' s work and therefore the access to Dr. Duhem's and perpetuates the error of the standard line about science in the Middle Ages.
Based on this I submit the Durant is not a legitimate source to impeach the premise of Dr. Trasancos' book.
With respect to Stephen Hawking and Curious it matters because he represented his show as a true and factual account of the events around the Condemnations of 1277. If the Hawking episode was untruthful about the Condemnations - that mattered then, and t matters now.
Based on this I submit the Durant is not a legitimate source to impeach the premise of Dr. Trasancos' book.
With respect to Stephen Hawking and Curious it matters because he represented his show as a true and factual account of the events around the Condemnations of 1277. If the Hawking episode was untruthful about the Condemnations - that mattered then, and t matters now.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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Interbane
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
I haven't seen the show Stahrwe. Whether or not the condemnations matter(and consequently whether or not Hawking was right as you say), all depends on the facts surrounding the condemnations. That was my point. I've actually never heard of them until you mentioned them. I can accept that the condemnations had an effect on the progress of science, by stifling the overuse of Aristotelian physics. But by all appearances, it was an unintended consequence.
I had an earlier question regarding how a cyclical ideology would cause a stillbirth. I didn't see the reasoning in Trasancos' book. Or perhaps it was because I didn't accept the nuances of the altered definition of science.
I had an earlier question regarding how a cyclical ideology would cause a stillbirth. I didn't see the reasoning in Trasancos' book. Or perhaps it was because I didn't accept the nuances of the altered definition of science.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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stahrwe
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
As I understand it the problem with THE GREAT YEAR was it promoted the idea that the universe was without a past when there was a creation - a beginning. Christianity rejected the GREAT YEAR as contrary to the record of Creation in the Bible.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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stahrwe
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Re: SCIENCE WAS BORN OF CHRISTIANITY FULL TEXT LIMITED LICENSE
You should read the book.
It is not long.
It is free, for a limited time.
It deals with a subject of interest to BT members.
You need to be familiar with the arguments as you will encountering them more and more in the future.
It is not long.
It is free, for a limited time.
It deals with a subject of interest to BT members.
You need to be familiar with the arguments as you will encountering them more and more in the future.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
