Thanks for the ongoing lively discussion of this fascinating subject.

The Virgin Mother as Moon Goddess

Regarding the virgin-mother status of Isis and other goddesses, another poster remarks:

The explanation never given is very simple. The Great virgin is the moon!

Actually, I give this simple explanation of the Goddess throughout my works, including at this link here:

Who is the Virgin Mother? Queen of Heaven

I have also alternatively titled that article, "Moon Mary: Queen of Heaven."

This lunar symbolism attached to Isis was expressed by Plutarch during the 2nd century AD/CE, obviously based on an earlier tradition. In his Moralia (52, 372D), Plutarch states that "there are those who declare that Isis is none other than the Moon." I discuss this fact of Isis's lunar significance in Christ in Egypt as well, on pp. 28, 228, et al.

Isis's synthesis with the moon is a later adaptation, apparently based on Greek influence, since the Greek religion/mythology frequently attaches lunar significance to the goddess archetype. However, prior to that time Isis actually possessed solar attributes, like so many other deities. Nevertheless, before the rise of solar mythology that accompanied the development of agriculture, stellar and lunar astrotheology were the main focus of many peoples globally, so it would not surprise us to find very ancient lunar attributes attached to various deities as well, including Osiris, whose dismemberment into 14 pieces represents the lunar phenomenon of monthly waning. Yet, the virgin-mother motif is not simply lunar or solar but also cosmic, as explained very well by Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso, cited in my article about Isis's alter-ego Neith. The virgin mother also represents the earth itself, as in the story of Demeter and Persephone or Kore, both of whom were said to have reproduced parthenogenetically.

In any event, it is wise to look for a variety of meanings behind various myths, as well as to realize that these popular and ubiquitous archetypes were clearly used in the creation of the Christian story. And yes, we do realize that the creators of the Christ myth put a heavy emphasis on making the tale appear to be a literal and "historical" story with real "human" figures. This type of "reverse euhemerism/evemerism" making a god into a person is not uncommon, however, as it can be found in mythology around the world, including with such mythical figures as Hercules, Dionysus, Osiris, Quetzalcoatl, Viracocha and many more - all of these figures have been believed to have been "real people," i.e., humans, and several of them, including Dionysus and Quetzalcoatl were said to have been born of virgins. So too were several figures who were indeed real people, such as Alexander and Plato, deemed to have been born of miraculous or virgin births.

As J.G.R. Forlong states:

The legend of the virgin birth was at least as old as the 2nd century A.C. among Christians; but Buddha, Zoroaster, Plato, Alexander, and even Tartar emperors and Pharaohs, were called the children of virgins by some god...

tat tvam asi wrote:

Can you mention ANY HUMAN in mythology who was a VIRGIN? All the virgin mothers were GODDESSES and not HUMAN.
For me this is the strongest point of the Jesus/Mary story being Bogus and stupid as well.

The writers were trying to tie in the Jesus myth to the Jewish scriptures. The idea was to have Jesus coming from the line of King David, descended from Abraham, and Noah, and Adam. That's why Mary is a human being in the myth, a woman descended from Adam, while serving the role of the virgin mother goddesses of antiquity.

If you're reading CiE then you'll find that much of this myth appears to have descended from Graeco-Jewish origins based around Alexandria Egypt and spread throughout the "collegia" around the Roman Empire. The idea was to blend Judaism with Hellenized thinking. So what comes from that is a mythology that reads as historical, such as the Jewish mythology reads.

I totally agree. That is exactly how I read CiE. Somehow the religion was trying to consolidate all the religions present at that complicated part of the world, where Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Jewish mythology met.
What sets Jewish myth apart from all others (and why it became the base for the christian myth) is that it mixes real history with fabricated history AND mythology. In Egypt, Rome and Greece people had their own favorite god, but the Hebrews had one and it united them. And for them it was REALITY.
"What a wonderfull concept", the creators of christianity must have thought. "Why can't we do the same and create a story based on elements that are historical, like places and people, and add other elements the Egyptians, Romans and Greek people would accept as a new religion".
"So enters: Jesus - a kind of Robin Hood, based on several real people that were fighting for Jewish freedom from the Romans - who is a child of a God and a human - like the Greek semi-gods". "Let's spice it with Egyptian "flavours", and sell it to the people". "And make it REAL, so it will win people over".
(Maybe it wasn't delibirately thought out this way, but that's what happened)
The Romans and Greeks were the first to adopt Christianity and THEY believed in semi-gods, so they could easily believe that a God could impregnate a woman who was still a Virgin.

The concept of mixing reality with faked reality and mythology is strong. Not only in Christianity, but also in Islam which came 500 plus years after that and is also a fictional "Real Live" soap opera.

The idea was not knew. The Hebrews were there before. According to their own books, they lived in Egypt for 400 years. They might have mixed their own religious ideas (perhaps related to Sumerian religion - Genesis) with Egyptian mythology and made it their own (Genesis-Exodus). However they didn't do it to consolidate, but to distinguish themselves from all others, espescially the Egyptians. That's why egyptian mythology is well hidden, but still there. According to ancient-hebrew.org the Hebrew language shows that the Hebrews were concrete thinkers and the language does not point to abstract thought. This must have obscured the Egyptian and Sumerian philosophies and burried them in the Jewish religious stories, told as historical events.

In my mind, Islam is a continuation of the jewish religion, but christianity is a branch off this semitic stream of thought, more related to the Greek and Roman school of thought.
Like Jews, muslims also set themselves apart from all others. They are bound to be the greatest enemies of each other. Christians are dangerous, because they like to consolidate and can easily become victims of Islam, like so many people before.

What I appreciate in CiE is the dis-covering of the real meaning behind the stories. Going to the roots of the religion and trying to understand where it came from. And the beautifull thing is that once you are back in Egypt and look at all the other religions that were out there, you notice that they were quite similar and actually astrotheological. It's a wonderfull book.

I totally agree. That is exactly how I read CiE. Somehow the religion was trying to consolidate all the religions present at that complicated part of the world, where Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Jewish mythology met.

I just made a post about the harmonization of science and religion. The idea applies here a bit, I think. It's noble to try and unify different understandings. From harmonizing religion to finding the ToE(theory of everything). Many different fields have their own variant of attempted Grand Unification Theories.

I can see the ancients having this same motive. They wished to harmonize all the data that was incoming. There is no need to consider their efforts as "creating a false story". Instead, they considered each story to be representative of "something" true, even though they may not have any idea what that something is. The parts which are selected would be memetically sticky. Ideas that remain in the brain, concepts that "click" with you. Recombination of various religious elements would be a natural output of this process.

This makes even more sense when you consider the status of knowledge of the time. They had very little to work with, and each idea was a shot in the dark. With our overflowing portfolio of knowledge allowing us a god's eye view of the past, it's easy to be intellectually condescending to those who sought truth in religion. But to be perfectly honest, I could see myself being such a person, if I lacked much of my current knowledge.

To anyone that reads G. Massey it should be evident that in the past there was a One world Religion. On page after page Massey will show the similarities of different peoples from different parts of the world. How can this be if not something in the past that tied them together. Egypt and this religion is very old. Myself I would say 10K years old at least. What is not known by almost everyone is what was the Original Religion based on? The past is one big secret. But the information of that Secret was carried to us by what we call alchemists. There is, Archarya, a 16 month process that is about perfecting matter. I found after 20 some years of investigation. Now, after 40 years there is still more to learn. The information is alchemy as we have termed it. It is about Perfecting Matter using just the forces in nature. This process when known is a duplicate of the religion of Osiris. and so it is a duplicate of Christianity. Yes, Jesus like Osiris is tied to this process. Alchemy is what the Myth is all about. also, the word definitions tied to the constellations follow this process, and so astrology as we know it is also from that process. every religious term is from that understanding. Baptism is from that process, or, almost everything talked about is from alchemy, known to Jesus as. "The Magic of Egypt." That is stated in the gnostics, "Jesus went to Egypt to learn the Magic'! Where was Jesus from the ages of 12 to 30? I would say that is when he was in Egypt, learning the Magic. He had a teacher, I have had to find everything myself.

The alchemists, look them up, were almost every person of our past that was noted for some reason. If you knew the process, you would see that all of them also knew this process, and brought it forward by what they said and did. If that is a True statement, how could you doubt them? Now, they were themselves for sure, and with Great Risk they passed on the information. If they discussed it openly, they would have been put to Death. In the Gnostics, It states, Jesus was hung on a Tree because he burnt his food." which means he talked to the wrong people about the magic. Yes, Jesus like Osiris was tied to the religious belief system. That is a product of the controlling group to maintain control. Can I say, that Sir Isacc Newton was a myth because he spoke of the secret, the Magic? That Paracelsus spoke of the Magic in a secretive way, and therefor he also was a myth? Plato, and Platonics is about the same magic. It is with all the old philosophers, and so, how do we rate them? I will bring up what they said, and show it is the old Religion, the base of the Myth, what does that make them? if Jesus speaks of it, and he does so in many places in the gnostics, what does that make him? How does a myth speak of a hidden science. Even Osiris does not speak of it, as he was pure myth, tied to the process which as i see it, was made into the religion because of the same magic, the same process. Much of what has been said is wrong. Why is it wrong? Because if the process is what the religion and Jesus are based on, how can it be explained if that is not known? For an example. The three wise men? Why Wise Men? Why is it the Wisdom of Sophia? Why is it the three stars on orions Belt, and are you sure it is because of the earths wobble during december? Why then is there no holiday during June, same thing happens. Why then is the Dog Star tied to sirius? Why not just ask, why a dog is tied to any of it if it is not about rotting matter made Perfect by nature. Note that Osiris was in a Swamp? Note the Eye of Horus or Eye of God, that is actually about Osiris being tied to the sun in Dec. But that is not the end, rather when Osiris goes to heaven to Unite with God to become a God. Now if he does that in Dec., what happened before to get him to that point? Is any of this written in the stars? Yes, or, why the Virgin Birth in September, and note, that is three days (months) before December. So, could it be that the three Wise men have something to do with wisdom, as does Sophia?

There is really one question that has to be answered. What is the Magic, and what is alchemy actually about. I mentioned Platonics. I said all the past philosophers, or at least many, it is everywhere. They all knew it and the past. Why is it that it is still unknown today? It explains everything, and lastly, there is Great Benifit in the explanation. Society could again have the medicne. I don't know what it does, but what if it cures all ills? Jesus had it, Paracelsus had it, the Alchemists had it. Why don't we.

Al

Interbane wrote:

I totally agree. That is exactly how I read CiE. Somehow the religion was trying to consolidate all the religions present at that complicated part of the world, where Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Jewish mythology met.

They wished to harmonize all the data that was incoming. There is no need to consider their efforts as "creating a false story". Instead, they considered each story to be representative of "something" true, even though they may not have any idea what that something is.

I think that is a nice idea, but if one considers how religion places itself in society and in history, it is not just about knowledge but very much about control.
This is where I draw the line between philosophy and religion.
I think this is where Moses crosses that line in Exodus (I know he probably didnt exist either, but again I refer to the STORY and not to history!). I refer to the part of the story where he comes down the mountain for the first time and 'breaks the law': "If you don't believe what I tell you, I kill you". And he did. After that Moses receives the Law for a 2nd time ("thou shalt not kill !!"), which was probably not in the first "issue"
Islam continues that attitude.
Controlling people with religion is actually politics and not philosophy. So there are political reasons to change religious ideas, resulting in the loss of certain philosophical ideas that are behind it.
Perhaps you are right and that there was a philosophical need to bring all these notions together, the need for answering questions about life and our place in the universe, but I sincerely believe that the drive was politics and not knowledge.

The comments by D M Murdock. Pg. 68, your book- "The Pyramid texts contained another "older version" of Osiris's death." From Budge, book of the dead, "Some of the texts misunderstood were ancient, 4500 years ago." How old actually do you feel that the story of Osiris is, which is the ancient religion of egypt.? Myself, I believe the sphinx is 10K years old. You know that Egypt never did anything without a reason. The sphinx is a marker for leo, 10 K years ago. The religion is then older than that. Why the older version above is important is the religion is confounded because it covers a long period of time. The second step of the process that the religion is based on is a hard step, because there is no explanation as to how to do. The above statement in your book, Osiris was drowned in the "Water of the Underworld" is tied to the original Story, because it describes how the matter has to be reduced to a base. I realize you don't understand this, but to me it is very important. Now, in 50 pages of your book, I can connect 50 facts to the process, and to Jesus as a man, and to the ancient process that the religion is based on. It is why my interest in your book. Also, in the first few pages of your book, you link the two eyes to the sun and moon. This is from the Creation and is where the "Waters Above" in Genesis is from. You also in describing the light of the sun, one aspect, "Perfection! This is the good of the light in Genesis. This perfection is extreemly important to know. Matter is what it is about. Matter can be perfected by the sunlight. Where you link the Pharoah to divinity, Jesus as you know is also linked to divinity. This is because they were fed the perfect Matter. This is how they were anoited. You have said, "many christos' down through the ages, all because of the same reason. Many, the alchemists though didn't believe it made you a christ or christos. Jesus did! Those around him also believed. You are absolutly right that jesus is tied to the myth. But, you also said in several places, 'To talk about the Mysteries was to be put to death,." I can reference this if you like. The alchemists were the same way. Now Jesus had an attitude, he talked about it and it so states in the Gnostics, "Jesus was killed, hung on a Tree because he burnt his bread." That means he was talking about the mysteries and so he was put to death. When you understand it, it is different than Osiris. Osiris was killed because he is about the matter that was perfected ( a natural Process). Jesus was killed for talking about something he shouldn't have. Osiris goes through the stages as a copy of the process to perfect matter. Osiris is resurrected a God which is the same as the Perfect matter. Jesus is resurrected as a copy of Osiris. What it is all about, the process was found that Perfected matter. The matter to the ancients convinced them of God in nature, and connected to the sun. This matter perfected what it touched (thier belief). This process was then turned into the religion of osiris. Later it was turned into christianity. The story itself is more rediculous than the myth, because it shows and explanins where everything comes from.

You also have linked Osiris to Sirius. The Dog star is linked to Sirius. The three stars of Orions Belt also, and are linked to the Wisdom of Sophia, and or to the Three Wise men. The wisdom or wise has to do with the knowledge of the process, the same secretive information that the Philosophers you mentioned will not talk about on the fear of death. You see, the whole problem is this. Osiris is based on something, as Sir W. Budge stated in Cleopatras Needles (Introduction). Until that is explained, there will always be misinformation and misunderstanding and arguments about what it is all about. The only good thing about all this is, the explanation and the medicine which man will have again, but it is still a maybe! Ask yourself, what would it mean to man to know all of the Truth of the past?

I don't mean in any way to be disrespectful. I could only wish for your knowledge and ability. But to me you have replaced Massey, and he is a sort of hero of mine for what he has placed in books. Your the present Day Massey, if that is O k to say!

Al

I am just an ordinary freethinking member of the public who out of shear interest has spent most of her life trying to seek out the truth. For 12 years i was a baptised member of a Judeo Christian sect but it wasn't until in latter years, i read the late Zecharia Stchin's books, concerning the Ancient Astronaut theory. After that i felt 'awakened' to the truth as it made everything i had read in the Old and New Testament 'come to life' (it made total sense out of an otherwise bizarre set of stories. I totally 'get it' that the Virgin mother Mary is modelled upon ISIS-MERY. I totally get it that Jesus is based upon the story of HORUS. All stories, all loosely based upon older stories. However, going back much further in time to the days of Ancient Sumer, if the Ancient Astronaut theory is true and i believe that it is, then there were such things as DNA Cloning (you might call that 'a resurrection') and more importantly with reference to THIS topic 'Surrogate' mothers (you might call them 'Virgin mothers') way back, thousands of years ago. So although i totally get the whole 'Jesus is Egypt' thing, this still does not prove that Virgin birth is/was impossible, we know today that it is a fact.

Hi ThothsKat (Bast?), welcome, and thanks for joining the conversation.

Unfortunately, Sitchin has a reputation as being quite wacky. His ideas may be attractive as science myth, but not as science fact.

What we are doing here is subjecting all forms of fantasy to stringent analysis. A range of people have come along with various 'new mythologies', and I fear that Mr. Sitchin is another in this line. Where I find DM Murdock's analysis immensely valuable is that it is actually very difficult to find errors in her work, because she adheres strongly to rigorous scientific method. So all this prompts lively debate with other readings of Egyptian sources that conflict with science.

I hope you don't find my comments too harsh, as I would welcome it if you can defend your views in a convincing way. But if you wish to say that Murdock makes mistakes in her understanding of ancient Egypt, please be specific, and please try to illustrate your argument with evidence.

As to virgin birth, there is no way a male, who has a Y chromosome, can exist without a human father, so the Jesus story is just absurd. The story is allegory. Our discussion here has focused on what the allegory represents. The daily birth of the sun from the purity of night and dawn is a universal natural motif that readily lends itself to elaboration as myth. It is a simpler explanation than Sitchin's fanciful theories about aliens, which conflict with scientific evidence at numerous obvious points.

Mr Tulip, I don't possess any degrees in any kind of world literature, i'm just a freethinking mom. I totally get it, that Jesus is based upon the STORY of HORUS - as i said! You say - 'there is no way a male who has a Y chromosome, can exist without a human father, so the Jesus story is absurd.' Ok - who said the Jesus story was true? I didn't, it's a story based upon another story 'that of HORUS.' Yes, totally get that (unless of course Jesus/Horus was a hermaphrodite). But fanciful stories about Aliens? No way! That's one you'll have to converse with the military/government about. I recommend, just for a snack, before meatier evidence, that you take time out to watch: Out of the Blue - Military Disclosure Has Begun - National Press Club LIVE, Washington D_C, before you post me back your next comment. Or is it the book sales you're more worried about?

ThothsKat wrote:who said the Jesus story was true? I didn't, it's a story based upon another story 'that of HORUS.' Yes, totally get that (unless of course Jesus/Horus was a hermaphrodite).

Hi ThothsKat, thanks. I was just trying to clarify your initial comments. You said "there were such things as ... 'Surrogate' mothers (you might call them 'Virgin mothers') way back, thousands of years ago. So although i totally get the whole 'Jesus is Egypt' thing, this still does not prove that Virgin birth is/was impossible, we know today that it is a fact."

This thread is about how we explain the Bible story of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. So, if you say "we know today that [virgin birth] is a fact" it is reasonable to ask if you are saying Jesus may have been born of a virgin.

But fanciful stories about Aliens? No way!

But you sing the praises of Sitchin, whose whole 'theory' is based on aliens. You said his "Ancient Astronaut theory ... made total sense."

Sorry if I am having trouble following your line of thought.