The NT was written in the 2nd century

DWill · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:47 pm

stahrwe wrote:More trash?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

This ought to be good.

As far as the Gospels are concerned, why would anyone expect that writings originating after 70 CE and purporting to be about the era of around 35 CE, would mention what happened in the time of the composition? If I write about events in the 1980s, mentioning 9/11 would seem to be an anachronism, and I probably wouldn't do it. I noted that your own post on the dating of the Gospels allows for a post-destruction date of composition.

tat tvam asi · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:36 pm

Thanks DWill, that basically outlines the obvious reason Stahrwe is pressing for - the story is written to appear to prophecize the destruction of the temple, long after the destruction had taken place, for proselytizing reasons. That's akin to writing a story now about the 1980's where a person that is claimed to have divine knowledge back in the 1980's is portrayed as predicting the events of 911 in advance to them happening in order to say, 'look, he knew the future outcome.'

Hardly a strong argument for early dating the gospels Stahrwe. And you'll find, once again, that the video series starts out by outlining what the traditional dates consist of which is merely the starting point for a much deeper scholarly investigation.

So let's look at the early dates you've posted:

The Gospel of Mark is dated from as early as the 50s, although most scholars date between the range of 65 and 72.[57] Most scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were written after the composition of Mark as they make use of Mark's content. Therefore they are generally dated later than Mark although the extent is debated. Matthew is dated between 70 and 85.

So back to your question:

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

Why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple according to the early dates you've given, which post date the destruction of the temple? The answer is that they speak of the temple in terms of Jesus predicting that it would be destroyed, after it had already been destroyed. This is make it look like Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple. Now that's just with the early dating. The gospels don't appear into the historical record until well into the second century at that.

In the 1830s German scholars of the Tübingen school dated the books as late as the 3rd century, but the discovery of some New Testament manuscripts and fragments from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, one of which dates as early as AD 125 (Papyrus 52), disproves a 3rd century date of composition for any book now in the New Testament.

Once again, this video series is about taking the evidence into consideration which is that there's no mention of the NT until the 2nd century, the very thing described in your above quote. No one's claimed that the NT was written in the 3rd century in this video series, the claim is in line with the evidence that points to the NT appearing into the historical record during the 2nd century which is confirmed by your own quote...

stahrwe · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:39 pm

DWill wrote:
stahrwe wrote:More trash?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
70 AD is during the First Century
Why is there no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in the NT if it was written in the
Second Century?

This ought to be good.
As far as the Gospels are concerned, why would anyone expect that writings originating after 70 CE and purporting to be about the era of around 35 CE, would mention what happened in the time of the composition? If I write about events in the 1980s, mentioning 9/11 would seem to be an anachronism, and I probably wouldn't do it. I noted that your own post on the dating of the Gospels allows for a post-destruction date of composition.

This is a poor argument.

First, one might not expect that something written about New York City of the 80's would deal at lenght with the 9/11 attacks but I would expect, when such a document referred to the World Trade Center there would be a note or something relating to their destruction. The same is true, on even a larger scale for Jerusalem, as the Temple was not merely an edicifice, it was the central focus of worship for all of Israel. Additionally, it wasn't just the temple but the entire city of Jerusalem which was destroyed. In a future discussion of New York City looking back on the time before the entire city was destroyed I would expect at least a mention of that destruction. For you to argue otherwise is like Wright ignoring Abraham's call.

Additionally, there were mentions of Jerusalem in the context of its future destruction which would have been logical places to include a confirming note had the event already taken place.

Your argument almost supposes that the documents were written with the intention of passing them off as earlier compositions. There is nothing to suggest that.

stahrwe · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:43 pm

tat tvam asi wrote:Thanks DWill, that basically outlines the obvious reason Stahrwe is pressing for - the story is written to appear to prophecize the destruction of the temple, long after the destruction had taken place, for proselytizing reasons. That's akin to writing a story about the 1980's where a person that is claimed to have divine knowledge predicted the events of 911 in advance to them happening in order to say, 'look, he knew the future outcome.'

Hardly a strong argument for early dating the gospels Stahrwe. And you'll find, once again, that the series starts out by outlining what the traditional dates consist of which is the starting point for investigation.

As opposed to starting with imagined/fabricated dates and backing into them.

johnson1010 · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:46 pm

The bible has no predictive power, other than the faithful's zeal for disagreeing and murdering on matters of fairy-tale detail.

if you want predictive power, look no further than science.

how about predicting the exact location, duration and area of effect of every lunar eclipse ever? both forward and backward in time.

How about an understanding of the progression of disease? how to avoid them, how to resist them, and how to cure them? how about understanding the chemical composition of every day items to understand their toxicity, or the contents of celestial bodies hundreds of millions of kilometers away?

religion has NOTHING to compete with the predictive power of science.

Star, you are pointing at the equivalent of me writing a "predictive" story about 1942 right now in 2011. It's garbage.

stahrwe · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 pm

johnson1010 wrote:The bible has no predictive power, other than the faithful's zeal for disagreeing and murdering on matters of fairy-tale detail.

if you want predictive power, look no further than science.

how about predicting the exact location, duration and area of effect of every lunar eclipse ever? both forward and backward in time.

How about an understanding of the progression of disease? how to avoid them, how to resist them, and how to cure them? how about understanding the chemical composition of every day items to understand their toxicity, or the contents of celestial bodies hundreds of millions of kilometers away?

religion has NOTHING to compete with the predictive power of science.

Star, you are pointing at the equivalent of me writing a "predictive" story about 1942 right now in 2011. It's garbage.

Another losing post.
What you are referring to is not really predictive in the sense of a prophecy it is more of a running the clock forward or backward and hardly impressive I agree. What you and the others insist on ignoring is the post I originally put in the Epistemology thread. The only posts directly addressing it are denials in the vein of the old Monty Python skits. So it won't be lost to posterity and for the newbies I will post the prophecy again.

Bible Prophecy Fulfilled - Israel 1948
By Britt Gillette

Prior to 1948, Israel last existed as an independent nation in 606 B.C. when the first captives of Israel were taken by Nebuchadnezzar. The destruction of Israel at the hands of the Babylonians was completed in 587 B.C. with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. For 70 biblical years (approximately 69 years on the Gregorian calendar), the Jewish people were held as captives in Babylon. In 537 B.C., the Persian King Cyrus conquered Babylon and issued a decree for the Jews to return to their land and rebuild the Temple. It was during the Babylonian captivity and this return to Israel that Ezekiel appeared as a prophet and provided the following information on the future existence of Israel as an independent nation:

"Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel's sins for 390 days - one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days - one day for each year of Judah's sin." Ezekiel 4:4-6 (New Living Translation)

According to this passage, the people of Israel would not be free until this period of punishment passed. This time is known as the "Servitude of the Nation," and the time allotted by God is 430 years. However, 70 years of atonement for their sins had already been served during the Babylonian captivity, so only 360 years of punishment remained. The Jews who returned to Israel in 537 B.C. refused to repent of their sins as Ezekiel warned. As a result, Israel continued to be ruled by foreign powers: the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans. In A.D. 70, Titus and the Roman legions destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish people as slaves among the various provinces of the Roman Empire. The year 176 B.C. had come and gone, yet Israel never emerged as an independent nation. So what happened? Was the Bible wrong? Did God change his mind?

Absolutely not.

Several earlier Old Testament passages shed light on this mystery. In the Book of Leviticus, they reveal that if, upon their return to the land of Israel, the people refused to obey God, he would increase their punishments seven-fold. This is repeated several times:
"And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over."

Leviticus 26:18 (New Living Translation)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins." Leviticus 26:21 (New Living Translation)

"And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins." Leviticus 26:23-24 (New Living Translation)

"If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins." Leviticus 26:27-28

(New Living Translation)

In the year 537 B.C., 360 years of punishment remained on God's timetable. However, when the people of Israel refused to repent of their sins, this punishment was multiplied seven-fold from 360 years to 2,520 years. 360 days comprise a biblical year, so the allotted time equaled 907,200 days.

However, in modern times, we don't use the Jewish calendar, but rather the Gregorian calendar which has 365.2425 days in a year. If the 907,200 days are divided by 365.2425, we get approximately 2,483.8292 years.

Historians have established that Cyrus the Persian issued his proclamation to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem sometime in the first half of the year 537 B.C. We don't know the exact day of the proclamation, but the Bible reveals that it had to be prior to the seventh month on the Jewish calendar because in that month, "the Israelites had settled in their towns, all the people assembled together as one person in Jerusalem." Ezra 3:1 (New Living Translation)
Without an exact starting date, it's more accurate to count backward 907,200 days from the day of Israel's restoration. Israel declared its status as an independent nation on May 14, 1948. Numerous online calendar conversion tools are available for counting days as well as converting between the Gregorian calendar and the Jewish calendar. Just try Googling "Jewish calendar conversion" to find one.

Subtracting 907,200 days from the Gregorian date of May 14, 1948, the calculator reveals a date of July 15, 537 B.C.
Gregorian Calendar: 14 May 1948 A.D.
Jewish Calendar: 5 Iyyar 5708
-907,200 days (360 days x 2,520 years)
Gregorian Calendar: 15 July 537 B.C.
Jewish Calendar: 15 Av 3224

Does this reconcile with the Biblical statement that the Jews had resettled in Jerusalem in the seventh month of 537 B.C.?

The equivalent date on the Jewish calendar is 15 Av 3224 - the fifteenth day of the fifth month. Since approximately 900 miles separate Babylon and Jerusalem (the geographical distance is less, but the ancient travel route is estimated at 900 miles), and ancient caravans rarely traveled more than 20 miles per day, this date doesn't seem to contradict the biblical account. The Jews would have had only 74 days to make their trip. Accounting for the Sabbath day of rest, that leaves approximately 63 actual travel days to reach Jerusalem before the end of the seventh month. To cover 900 miles in that time, they needed to average 14.29 miles/per day, 6 days per week - a task well within reach.
It also seems highly likely that Cyrus made his proclamation in this part of the year, because the Jewish holiday Tisha B'Av, a three week fast commemorating the destruction of the Temple 50 years earlier ends on the 9th of Av. 9 Av 537 B.C. was within a one week of the 50th anniversary of the Temple's destruction, a fitting time for a king's proclamation to rebuild it.

Although July 15, 537 B.C. can not be verified by outside sources as the exact day of Cyrus's proclamation, we do know that 537 B.C. was the year in which he made it. As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel's restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred.

ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfi ... ;id=449317
http://www.msevans.com/epilepsy/daysbetweendates.htm

Date.JPG

[/quote]

Let's see science make a prophecy, oh wait, it can't!

DWill · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:33 pm

That whole rigmarole is patently absurd, a testimony to misspent ingenuity.

tat tvam asi · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:33 pm

Or, logically Stahrwe, people have been playing around with these bible verses for centuries which led to the Zionist movement in modern times, and out of which the restoration of Israel movement is one of the biggest and most obvious cases of people trying to intentionally self fulfill biblical prophecy for religious and political reasons based on deep rooted beliefs regarding the popular Judeo-Christian mythology.

But low and behold, how far will they be able to take it? Are they going to try and figure how to create an elaborate second coming of Jesus laser light show in the sky with a lake of burning sulfur and a New Jerusalem coming down grand finale? There's only so far they can take this self fulfilling prophecy act until they run out of rope...

But the issue we're discussing is where is the evidence for the existence of the NT before the 2nd century? The destruction of the temple in AD 70 doesn't provide evidence for a first century existence of the NT, nor does referring to modern Zionism as something other than the blatant self fulfilling prophecy attempt that it is well known for. None of this serves to provide any historical evidence of the NT existing any earlier than when it began to appear into the historical record during the second century, as the video series proves beyond question. The NT appears into the historical record during the second century and not sooner. Earlier dating is woulda, coulda, shoulda, territory.

http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... =18&t=3438

The Canon: A Second-Century Composition

"...With such remarkable declarations of the Church fathers, et al., as well as other cogent arguments, we possess some salient evidence that the gospels of Luke and John represent late second-century works. In fact, all of the canonical gospels seem to emerge at the same time—first receiving their names and number by Irenaeus around 180 AD/CE, and possibly based on one or more of the same texts as Luke, especially an "Ur-Markus" that may have been related to Marcion's Gospel of the Lord. In addition to an "Ur-Markus" upon which the canonical gospels may have been based has also been posited an "Ur-Lukas," which may likewise have "Ur-Markus" at its basis.

"The following may summarize the order of the gospels as they appear in the historical and literary record, beginning in the middle of the second century:

1. Ur-Markus (150)
2. Ur-Lukas (150+)
3. Luke (170)
4. Mark (175)
5. John (178)
6. Matthew (180)

"To reiterate, these late dates represent the time when these specific texts undoubtedly emerge onto the scene. If the canonical gospels as we have them existed anywhere previously, they were unknown, which makes it likely that they were not composed until that time or shortly before, based on earlier texts...."

- Who Was Jesus?, pages 82-83

Frank 013 · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:01 pm

tat tvam asi
The NT appears into the historical record during the second century and not sooner. Earlier dating is woulda, coulda, shoulda, territory.

Unfortunately stahrwe cannot even consider this possibility… He is in bondage to his belief… no matter how much evidence is placed in front of him he cannot see it for what it is… his brain is literally re-wired by his religion and he is now incapable of seeing outside of his little cage.

His world consists of magic and miracles… and he thinks those to be more likely than any other possibility even when other/better explanations are available… He trusts the ramblings of bronze age savages over the best information and minds our species could gather and conceive… stahrwe lives in a place where reason cannot reach… a delusional facsimile of the real world… and he is shielded by arrogance.

Later

DWill · Unread post Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:29 pm

What I want to know is, if you believed in the "prophecy" stahrwe posted, how you could ever worship a god who made an ethnic group suffer through centuries of pogroms and topped it all off with the Holocaust, before saying, "Welcome home."

The NT was written in the 2nd century

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