These poor souls that have it so bad... They need to stop whatever they're doing and pray. They need to stop working and stop learning and just pray. Pray all day long. When they finally do that, God is sure to show them how much he cares.

President Camacho wrote:These poor souls that have it so bad... They need to stop whatever they're doing and pray. They need to stop working and stop learning and just pray. Pray all day long. When they finally do that, God is sure to show them how much he cares.

They already know how much He cares. That's why they answered His call and went to Afghanistan. Don't misinterpret my post. I am not asking for pity for the missionaries who died. Jim Elliott once said, "He is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose." Jim and his friend Nate Saint felt the call to go to a primitive central American tribe. They were xenophobic and the only contact with the outside world had ended badly. Through a careful plan of progressive contact Jim and Nate established a beachhead near the village. They discovered that the people were highly superstitious and engaged in constant fighting with neighboring tribes which was decimating them. They also had beliefs which lead them to kill members of their own tribe. Things were going well until a rivalry between two village men over a woman lead to a false accusation against the missionaries. Jim and Nate were speared to death. But the story didn't end there. Jim's widow eventually moved, with her young children to the native village responsible for her husband's death. The who story and what happened after her move are recounted in a recent movie: End of the Spear and various books.

What did Jim and Nate die for?

We have discussed slavery in various forums in BT. Jim and Nate believed that the natives were in slavery.

BTW
Seespotrun2008 and
presidentcamacho
thanks for posting.

Those who believe the world is better today than thousands of years ago have a short memory. Have they forgotten; Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pott? And what about today; Burma, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, China? It's easy from a Western European perspective to see the glass half full. But I submit that is because of the influence of religion on our culture.

I don’t agree. In my opinion, a loving God lets us make our choices. The whole problem I see with the argument that the world is messed and therefore a loving God would never stand for it is that it diverts the blame from us. And ultimately we are responsible as a group for this mess, whether one believes in a God or not. You are right, there is a lot of compassion in the world as well as evil. That is good. And we are all imperfect. But we can take care of each and support each other even more than we do. I know that that is expecting a lot. I am way too much of an idealist.

The only thing I had in mind here were hurricanes, earthquakes, diseases, tsunami's, etc.

On a side note, why are you so quick to 'need' someone to blame? I think it's part of our problem that we seek to place blame in so many situations where it isn't needed. Sometimes, honest accidents will happen, yet one family will hate another for the rest of their lives. But based on what? An accident that was unavoidable? There is a lot of literature on what's called 'agency', that is, an intelligent agent as the responsible party for certain actions or phenomena. Even if an accident was purely a matter of freak misfortune, we seek an agent to blame. If something in our garage turns up missing, we wonder who might have stolen it. This bias has served us well as we've evolved, but we are beyond the point where we need it, so need to fight against it and learn to forgive. Not all crimes are forgivable mind you, but we should still pursue justice with compassion and an understanding of our evolved biases.

Those who believe the world is better today than thousands of years ago have a short memory.

I don't think I know anyone that old.

Interbane wrote:

I don’t agree. In my opinion, a loving God lets us make our choices. The whole problem I see with the argument that the world is messed and therefore a loving God would never stand for it is that it diverts the blame from us. And ultimately we are responsible as a group for this mess, whether one believes in a God or not. You are right, there is a lot of compassion in the world as well as evil. That is good. And we are all imperfect. But we can take care of each and support each other even more than we do. I know that that is expecting a lot. I am way too much of an idealist.

The only thing I had in mind here were hurricanes, earthquakes, diseases, tsunami's, etc.

On a side note, why are you so quick to 'need' someone to blame? I think it's part of our problem that we seek to place blame in so many situations where it isn't needed. Sometimes, honest accidents will happen, yet one family will hate another for the rest of their lives. But based on what? An accident that was unavoidable? There is a lot of literature on what's called 'agency', that is, an intelligent agent as the responsible party for certain actions or phenomena. Even if an accident was purely a matter of freak misfortune, we seek an agent to blame. If something in our garage turns up missing, we wonder who might have stolen it. This bias has served us well as we've evolved, but we are beyond the point where we need it, so need to fight against it and learn to forgive. Not all crimes are forgivable mind you, but we should still pursue justice with compassion and an understanding of our evolved biases.

Those who believe the world is better today than thousands of years ago have a short memory.

I don't think I know anyone that old.

For Interbane's sake, the thousands of years ago reference was based on what we have as a result of a marvelous invention called writing so we can read about the past. The short memory reference had nothing to do with that, it was aimed at events which some of us have lived through, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pott, etc. How many millions of people did they have killed. I think Pol Pott was responsible for the killing of 10% of the population of his country. Now that's a remarkable accomplishment in a world growing more civilized. I think most understood my intent.

Well then all you God people get together and pray for no more famine, no more killings, no more natural disasters do you really think your Sky Fairy is going to answer you? I got $20 says he won't! If the Pope is suppose to be a man of God and believes in God and as faith in this God why does he need 3 inches of bullet proof glass? God will save him right? Even his faith is not as strong as he would lead the free world to believe is it? As far as placing blame on anyone humans are not the cause of natural disasters thats out of our hands. Hitler, Stalin and others killed and maimed people because they had the power to do so had there been a high powered being looking down from the heavens he could surely have stopped the slaughter but then again he destroyed millions in this so called flood so I don't think human life mean't squat to the Sky Fairy to start with.

The only thing I had in mind here were hurricanes, earthquakes, diseases, tsunami's, etc.

Lot's of damage happens with those things yes. Sometimes humans can avoid those things, sometimes they can't. If we take care of our earth those things may happen less but will never go away completely. But natural occurrences are not what I am talking about. Nature just does what it does. And you are right, a lot of people get hurt by those things and it is very sad when it happens. But I think more of the way that people treat each other. Those things can be avoided. Abuse, economic inequality, homelessness, starvation, war, inequality, etc.

On a side note, why are you so quick to 'need' someone to blame? I think it's part of our problem that we seek to place blame in so many situations where it isn't needed. Sometimes, honest accidents will happen, yet one family will hate another for the rest of their lives. But based on what? An accident that was unavoidable? There is a lot of literature on what's called 'agency', that is, an intelligent agent as the responsible party for certain actions or phenomena. Even if an accident was purely a matter of freak misfortune, we seek an agent to blame. If something in our garage turns up missing, we wonder who might have stolen it. This bias has served us well as we've evolved, but we are beyond the point where we need it, so need to fight against it and learn to forgive. Not all crimes are forgivable mind you, but we should still pursue justice with compassion and an understanding of our evolved biases.

Your right. Sometimes things happen that are unavoidable. And I suppose that you could argue that everything that happens is unavoidable because we are born and raised a certain way which causes us to be who we are. Some people like to say that the way we behave is biological. Yet, even Richard Dawkins said that we can teach compassion - that we are not slaves to our biology. I am of the opinion that we can make choices. While accidents do happen, there are times where people do evil things intentionally. Some of the evil that we do is unconscious though. Which makes it very complicated. There are no easy answers.

There is an easy answer! If this christian god exist make it known to the world instead of playing hide and seek in some fantasy land surrounded by elves and, well I am not going there..................