You haven't provided so much as one instance where the "shamayim" of Genesis 1:1 refers to anything other than the unseparated, pre multi-level "heavens", that bible clearly states. The heaven and earth are created (bara), yes, and that means the formless earth with waters above and below it, not a fully formed earth and heaven which is already 'separated' into multiple layers with a firmament for the sun to inhabit. You've brought forward the assumptions of others, such as assuming that the earth must have become void and formless by verse 2, but those are just assumptions based on the original folly of taking verse 1 to refer to everything in the sky being created all at once. When moving back to the obvious context of the creation account, the problem is solved and no assumptions are necessary. The heaven and earth are created as 'unformed' in verse 1, and therefore verse 2 requires no extra biblical assumptions about the state of void and formlessness in the text. This whole apriori assumption that the sun was created in verse 1 when it says that the "shamayim" was created, is the root of all of your problems with being way out of context with the narrative. Once the out of context apriori assumption is removed the creation account reads as it was designed to be read as a symbolic progession of creating, making, shaping, and forming over the course of six symbolic days.

This is where the roads ends for your dishonest and out of context with the bible apology Stahrwe. You have to try and change around the obvious context of the biblical narrative in order to avoid a major contradiction with literal interpretation of the biblical narrative and in the end you fail horribly, with all due respect and for what it's worth. That's the foundational flop of the entire YEC movement as a whole, it isn't even consistent with the bible because the context of the creation account is clearly not written to work out as a literal seven 24 hour day period of time reading. As I see it Stahrwe, you are currently at odds with "truth". By that I only mean to suggest that it's not "true" that earth is young instead of old and the bible isn't even a valid reason to suggest the earth is young in the first place. It isn't meant to be taken concretely literal at all.

That doesn't automatically mean there can't be some force or energy at work in existence that people have called "God", it just means that the YEC biblical literalism movement is a misrepresentation of whatever that creative "God" force or energy in the universe may turn out to be. It could simply be the creative impulse of nature acting with a driving intent towards the emergence of life where ever life is possible in the universe. Creation is an on going process - a long, long, long process - as is evident from empirical observation here on the earth. The earth just happens to be one of the potentially few or many locations suitable for life in the universe. There are a lot of options to consider once crossing the threshold of understanding that the interpretation of Genesis 1 or 2 "literally" is obviously errant. In realizing that FACT it's time to start moving on. That's why so many people have moved on Stahrwe, even Christians who do read the bible and do believe in God. It's obviously not meant to be taken literally and many Christians understand that much about the narrative. And science is not some elaborate Luciferian conspiracy devised by some mythological devil to fool people into thinking the earth is old instead of young! If anything it's the exact opposite, deceptive forces at work in those YEC proponents who came before you, and at work now in you yourself, have been trying to deceive people into the thinking the earth is young when it clearly isn't. What sort of dark force is responsible for that? And the real kicker in this truth seeking venture of mine is that the bible itself can't be used to back such a literal interpretation to begin with! People have to try and butcher the context of the bible to get to a place where the days of creation can be taken literally in the first place, which is then used to try and calculate the earth to be young, 6-10 thousand years young. The entire venture has been misrepresentation of the bible all along! It's a house of cards resting on a sand foundation, as opposed to solid structure resting on the unmovable rock of the ages. Once the butchering of the context of the bible is pointed out, the house of cards falls down to the sand that it has been resting on all of this time. That's just how this truth seeking venture unfolds...

the bible is clearly not written to work out as a literal seven 24 hour day reading.

Yep. You would be better off with Tarot Cards....................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative
Overview

The opening passages of the Book of Genesis consecutively contain two creation stories. In the first story God progressively creates the different features of the world over a series of six days, resting on the seventh day.[3] Creation is performed by divine incantation: on the first day God says "Let there be light!" and light appears. On the second day God creates an expanse (firmament) to separate the waters above (the sky) from those below (the ocean/abyssos). On the third day God commands the waters below to recede and make dry land appear, and fills the earth with vegetation. God then puts lights in the sky to separate day from night to mark the seasons. On the fifth day, God creates sea creatures and birds of every kind and commands them to procreate. On the sixth day, God creates land creatures of every kind. Man and woman are created last, after the entire world is prepared for them; they are created in the image of God, and are given dominion and care over all other created things. God rests on the seventh and final day of creation, which he marks as holy.

In the second story the creation of man follows the creation of the heavens and earth, but occurs before the creation of plants and animals.[4] God takes earth (adamah, ochre) from the ground to form a man and breathes life into him. God prepares a garden in the East of Eden and puts the man there, then fills it with trees bearing fruit for him to eat. The man is invited to eat the fruit of any tree but one: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God commands man not to eat of that one tree "for when you eat of it you will surely die."[5] Birds and animals are then created as man's companions and helpers, and God presents them to the man. The first man gives names to each one, but finds none suitable to be his helper, so God puts him into a deep sleep and removes one of his ribs, which he uses to make the first woman. "For this reason," the text reads, "a man will leave his father and mother for his wife, and they shall be joined as one flesh."

The narratives

God creating the land animals (Vittskövle Church fresco, 1480s).The passages have had an exceptionally long and complex history of interpretation. Until the latter half of the 19th century, they were seen as one continuous, uniform story with Genesis 1:1–2:3 outlining the world's origin, and 2:4–2:25 carefully painting a more detailed picture of the creation of humanity. Modern scholarship, persuaded by (1) the use of two different names for God, (2) two different emphases (physical vs. moral issues), and (3) a different order of creation (plants before humans vs. plants after humans), advances that these are two distinct scriptures written many years apart by two different sources...

The creation week narrative consists of eight divine commands executed over six days, followed by a seventh day of rest.

First day: God creates light ("Let there be light!")[Gen 1:3]—the first divine command. The light is divided from the darkness, and "day" and "night" are named.
Second day: God creates a firmament ("Let a firmament be...!")[Gen 1:6–7]—the second command—to divide the waters above from the waters below. The firmament is named "skies".
Third day: God commands the waters below to be gathered together in one place, and dry land to appear (the third command).[Gen 1:9–10] "earth" and "sea" are named. God commands the earth to bring forth grass, plants, and fruit-bearing trees (the fourth command).
Fourth day: God creates lights in the firmament (the fifth command)[Gen 1:14–15] to separate light from darkness and to mark days, seasons and years. Two great lights are made (most likely the Sun and Moon, but not named), and the stars.
Fifth day: God commands the sea to "teem with living creatures", and birds to fly across the heavens (sixth command)[Gen 1:20–21] He creates birds and sea creatures, and commands them to be fruitful and multiply.
Sixth day: God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command);[Gen 1:24–25] He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates humanity in His "image" and "likeness" (eighth command).[Gen 1:26–28] They are told to "be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it." Humans and animals are given plants to eat. The totality of creation is described by God as "very good."
Seventh day: God, having completed the heavens and the earth, rests from His work, and blesses and sanctifies the seventh day.

The context of linear progression in the narrative is simple and obvious. All of this slide of hand semantic game playing on the part of apologists serves to further discredit their position in the end. YEC is based on a contradiction to start out with (having days going by before days can be marked by the sun) and then a flat out butchering of the context of the creation narrative follows (claiming the sun was really created in verse 1 instead of the fourth day) as a defense against the initial contradiction. The butchering of the context of the linear progression of the creation narrative hangs the apologist in the end because there's no way of putting the creation of the sun in Genesis 1:1 fusing it with the creation of the "shamayim" (heaven) without getting snagged on the events of the following days of creation. Misrepresenting the bible in order to try and defend your own literal interpretation of the bible will find you out Stahrwe. That's what your move towards pointing at the words "bara", "asah", and "shamayim" has done for your argument. It only assists in showing, very clearly, how you're trying to butcher the context of the creation narrative along with the help of other apologists who are trying very hard to do the same. You're simply trying to shore up the "literalists" blend of faith at all costs, even the cost honesty!

tat tvam asi wrote:Re: The Canaanite Heaven in Genesis 1:1?
You haven't provided so much as one instance where the "shamayim" of Genesis 1:1 refers to anything other than the unseparated, pre multi-level "heavens",

Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

tat tvam asi wrote:that bible clearly states. The heaven and earth are created (bara), yes, and that means the formless earth with waters above and below it, not a fully formed earth and heaven

NRSV
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens, who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other.

tat tvam asi wrote:which is already 'separated' into multiple layers with a firmament for the sun to inhabit. You've brought forward the assumptions of others, such as assuming that the earth must have become void and formless by verse 2, but those are just assumptions based on the original folly of taking verse 1 to refer to everything in the sky being created all at once. When moving back to the obvious context of the creation account, the problem is solved and no assumptions are necessary.

I agree with your last statement, See Isa 45:18 quoted above..

tat tvam asi wrote:The heaven and earth are created as 'unformed' in verse 1, and therefore verse 2 requires no extra biblical assumptions about the state of void and formlessness. This whole apriori assumption that the sun is created in verse 1 when it says that the "shamayim" was created, is the root of all of your problems with being way out of context with the narrative. Once the out of context apriori assumption is removed, the creation account reads as it was designed to be read as a symbolic progession creating, making, shaping, and forming over the course of six symbolic days.

I disagree. The reading is clearly and literally in accordance with my description.

tat tvam asi wrote:This is where the roads ends for your dishonest and out of context with the bible apology Stahrwe. You have to try and change the obvious context of the bible narrative around in order to avoid a major contradiction with literal interpretation of the bible and in the end you fail horribly, with all due respect and for what it's worth. That's the foundational flop of the entire YEC movement as a whole, it isn't even consistent with the bible because the context of the creation account is clearly not written to work out as a literal seven 24 hour day reading.

This is what you have been attempting to demonstrate, or rather force me to admit since the beginning of this discussion and you lose. The Biblical account is explainable in the context of a fully literal interpretation of Genesis 1. You are free to claim a different interpretation, but you have not, will not and can not prove that my interpretation is wrong.

I would like a clarification on one point above. You state, “… your dishonest …”
Is it your intention to indicate that I am lying?

tat tvam asi wrote:As I see it Stahrwe, you are currently at odds with "truth". By that I only mean to suggest that it's not "true" that earth is young instead of old and the bible isn't even a valid reason to suggest the earth is young in the first place. It isn't meant to be taken concretely literal at all. That doesn't automatically mean there can't be some force or energy at work in existence that people have called "God", it just means that the YEC biblical literalism movement is a misrepresentation of whatever that creative "God" force or energy in the universe may turn out to be. It could simply be the creative impulse of nature acting with a driving intent towards the emergence of life where ever life is possible in the universe.

If your definition of god is that it is some force or energy or what Penelope called, “some thingy,” then I deny its existence and claim, with that definition of god, to be a proud atheist.

tat tvam asi wrote:Creation is an on going process, a long, long, long process, as is evident from empirical observation here on the earth. The earth just happens to be one of the potentially few or many locations suitable for life in the universe. There are a lot of options to consider once crossing the threshold of realizing that interpreting Genesis 1 or 2 literally is obviously errant. In realizing that FACT it becomes time to move on. That's why so many people have moved on, even Christians. It's obviously not literal. And science is not an elaborate conspiracy devised by some mythological devil to fool people into thinking the earth is old instead of young! If anything it's the exact opposite, deceptive forces at work in those who came before you, and at work now in you yourself, have been trying to deceive people into the thinking the earth is young when it clearly isn't. And the real kicker in this truth seeking venture of mine is that the bible itself can't be used to back such and assertion to begin with! People have to try and butcher the context to get to a place where the days can be taken literally in the first place which is then used to try and calculate the earth to be young, 6-10 thousand years young.

Once again your are confusing terms. Creation is not a long, ongoing process. If it is, create some matter for me, Or perhaps a living organism. I can hear the shouts of, ‘unfair’, the snarky snickering at my ignorance, the self satisfied sniffing as you admit that it isn’t problematic that science cannot ‘create’ these things and shouldn’t be called on to do so. My answer to that is, Why not? If brutish nature, with no intellectual capability what-so-ever create life, surely humans, with our big brains should be able to duplicate the process, given the raw materials.

And the real kicker for your ‘truth seeking venture’ is that you delude yourself by discounting the Bible because it not convenient. Ironically this means that you are not seeking the truth at all.

What is really amazing is that I have no game. I am pretty much on the periphery of creationism and YEC. I haven’t spent much time on it until Booktalk.org. Based on what I am seeing, I understand the real reason that Dr. Richard Dawkins and his buddies won’t debate creationists.

You want to know one other thing that is amusing? Scientists who speculate about evidence that the universe is billions of years old, then when that evidence fails to show up just re-do their assumptions to make the evidence fit the ‘known’ age of the universe.

tat tvam asi wrote: You haven't provided so much as one instance where the "shamayim" of Genesis 1:1 refers to anything other than the unseparated, pre multi-level "heavens",

So you cut off my quote abruptly right there and then responded with:

Stahrwe wrote:Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Not one of these verses is in context with the "shamayim" as described in Genesis 1:1, which is before the second day of creation when the waters above and below the earth are separated into firmament. They refer to the multi-level state of the heavens after the second day of creation which is obvious from their context and usage! You just made yet another dishonest attempt to butcher the context of the bible in order to try prove your point of the sun being created in Genesis 1:1, instead of on the fourth day of creation! You point to verses that are speaking of the biblical heaven and heavens well after the separation of firmament on the second day, and well after the sun, moon, and stars have entered the context of the biblical narrative on the fourth day.

Stahrwe wrote:NRSV
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens, who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other.

This doesn't have anything to do with using the bible to prove that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1. Yes, God created the heavens, formed the earth and made it. And the bible gives a very clear linear process of how that transpired, step by step and day by day, and as to how the heaven and earth were created void and formless at first and then gradually given form over the course of the following six days:

First day: God creates light ("Let there be light!")[Gen 1:3]—the first divine command. The light is divided from the darkness, and "day" and "night" are named.
Second day: God creates a firmament ("Let a firmament be...!")[Gen 1:6–7]—the second command—to divide the waters above from the waters below. The firmament is named "skies".
Third day: God commands the waters below to be gathered together in one place, and dry land to appear (the third command).[Gen 1:9–10] "earth" and "sea" are named. God commands the earth to bring forth grass, plants, and fruit-bearing trees (the fourth command).
Fourth day: God creates lights in the firmament (the fifth command)[Gen 1:14–15] to separate light from darkness and to mark days, seasons and years. Two great lights are made (most likely the Sun and Moon, but not named), and the stars.
Fifth day: God commands the sea to "teem with living creatures", and birds to fly across the heavens (sixth command)[Gen 1:20–21] He creates birds and sea creatures, and commands them to be fruitful and multiply.
Sixth day: God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command);[Gen 1:24–25] He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates humanity in His "image" and "likeness" (eighth command).[Gen 1:26–28] They are told to "be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it." Humans and animals are given plants to eat. The totality of creation is described by God as "very good."
Seventh day: God, having completed the heavens and the earth, rests from His work, and blesses and sanctifies the seventh day.

You contradict the literal reading of the bible by suggesting that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1, before the separation of the waters above and below the earth which is the firmament which happens on the second day of creation, and before the sun, moon, and stars were made on the fourth day and set in the firmament which didn't exist until the second day when God commanded the separation of the waters to form a firmament region of the sky. Neither the firmament nor the sun inhabiting the firmament are present in Genesis 1:1 "literally". There was no place for the sun yet as of Genesis 1:1 according to the narrative. You, while acting as if you're arguing for the literal interpretation, actually butcher the context of the literal interpretation to try and avoid it's obvious contradiction. And the verses coming behind Genesis 1:1 that you've pointed at now, from well after the creation account which don't directly deal with what's happening in Genesis 1:1 at all, make you all the more of a liar Stahrwe. You're shrouded in the blackest of darkness with these untrue assertions.

Stahrwe wrote:What is really amazing is that I have no game. I am pretty much on the periphery of creationism and YEC. I haven’t spent much time on it until Booktalk.org.

It's obvious that you haven't spent much time on the issue of YEC until coming here to book talk Stahrwe, as you're now admitting. So then this is your wake up call. If you believe that everything happens for a reason, then guess what, there's probably a reason that you've had to face this issue at long last. You have to provide one or more verses from the bible that specifically refer to Genesis 1:1 and state that the waters above and below the earth were already separated into the firmament and that the sun already existed in the already existing firmament of separated waters as of Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:1 doesn't say that at all and neither do any of the verses you've posted at from elsewhere in the bible. The context is clear, the heaven and earth are created in verse 1, described as void and formless in verse 2, and God calls light, which is not the sun, into existence in verse 3. The firmament is separated later and the sun is made and set in the firmament by God (Elohim) even later yet. Your apology is purely out of context with the bible Stahrwe, which is self defeating for the purpose of taking the bible "literally". You aren't taking it "literally" in the first place, you're inserting things into the narrative that are out of context with the narrative in order to claim that the narrative doesn't contradict itself, when it actaully does. That's dishonest, plain and simple!

Let's go ahead and make an even better example your folly in choosing these particular bible verses to refer back to the state of the heaven (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 shall we:

Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude

.
Let's see, the LORD has multiplied people to large numbers, like the stars of heaven. The heaven in question here is not the state of the heaven of Genesis 1:1, rather the state of heaven after the stars had been made on the fourth day, and well after people's number had multiplied on the earth which is likewise well after the stars had been made on the fourth day. Before the fourth day there's no indication whatsoever of any stars existing yet in the heaven at all.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

This is about the fighting with the Kings of Canaanan. It has nothing to do with making a reference to Genesis 1:1 in terms of proving the sun was created at that time in the narrative. The stars in question in the context of the verse are the stars that were in existence at the time the Kings of Canaanan were being fought against, not before the fourth day of creation when the stars are clearly made in the narrative.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger

.
Once again, this has nothing to do with the state of the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1:1 which is before any thing in the above narrative had ever taken place. Yes, a threat is made about shaking the heavens, which at this point in the narrative had already been separated into multiple levels known as the "heavens".

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded

.
Once again, way after the narrative of Genesis 1 God is reflecting back on how he made (asah) the earth (which shows how the terms "create" and "make" are used interchangeably in different places in the bible because in Genesis God "created" the heaven and earth mind you, it doesn't say that God made "asah" the heaven and earth back in Genesis 1:1 which is self defeating to you because you're arguing that they are not used interchangeably) and created man upon it. He stretched out the heavens, yes, and the separation of the waters above and below the earth is part of that. It happened on the second day according to the bible. Then on the fourth day God made ("asah") the sun and set it in the firmament, after the firmament had already been established on the second day. This verse has nothing to do with proving that the sun was created in narrative as of Genesis 1:1 because it doesn't refer to the state of the sky as of Genesis 1:1, rather it refers to well after that point in time.

I remember back in tenth grade bible class going through the teachers bible studies when I had a very abrupt realization as to what was going on in that bible class. You see, people think that they can use the bible the way a murder will take cut out words from a variety of media and paste them all together to present a note to the police, or whoever. None of the letters or words used are in context with one another! The teacher would take a single word, or a single sentence from a wide range of books in the bible that would jump between the new and old testaments, and then craft together what he was calling a "bible study" on "God's Word". I suppose that people think that because they consider the bible as a divine book that they can use it completely out of context like this in order to try and make any given point they themselves wish to make as if it were God given, whether or not it requires butchering severly the context of the bible verses in question.

That's what you've done with the above bible verses Stahrwe and I'm calling you out on it. That isn't the bible proving that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1 when the unseparated waters of the "shamayim" were created in the narrative, according to the context of the narrative, it's just you taking the bible out of context to try and avoid a major contradiction as of the first day of creation in the bible. I do have 12 years (more if you consider pre-first grade SDA Sabbath School classes and cradle role before that) of bible classes under my belt you freaking idiot, so you're not going to slide anything past me I can assure you of that. I can expose an out of context biblical apology better than you may have anticipated previously. I will break out the bible and I will check the context of everything you bring forward as "biblical" and I will kick your lying ass in the process every time you make a false assertion! There's no more Mr. Nice Guy at this point Stahrwe, not after you decided to accuse me of loosing to you! So far you have nothing "biblical" on your side to prove that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1. You haven't won a dam thing. You'd better start paying very close attention to the context of the bible verses that you bring forward for consideration from now on Stahrwe. You have failed at every attempt to twist the biblical narrative around to suite your personal liking. And that's where we remain. YEC has been put to rest and every effort you've made to lift it back up again has failed and had been proven a failure every single step of the way! So come on, keep at it tough guy. What else do you think you have that is going to change the fact that the bible starts off the first day with an errant contradiction, if interpreted "literally"?

tat tvam asi wrote:Let's go ahead and make an even better example your folly in choosing these particular bible verses to refer back to the state of the heaven (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 shall we:

Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude

.
Let's see, the LORD has multiplied people to large numbers, like the stars of heaven. The heaven in question here is not the state of the heaven of Genesis 1:1, rather the state of heaven after the stars had been made on the fourth day, and well after people's number had multiplied on the earth which is likewise well after the stars had been made on the fourth day. Before the fourth day there's no indication whatsoever of any stars existing yet in the heaven at all.

Proof once again that you should have been paying attention at the SDA school instead of daydreaming. The reference is not to the number of people on the earth but to the number of descendents of the Jews. Also, a subtle proof of the Bible's accuracy regarding a scientific fact. Do you know how many stars are visible to naked eye? Approximately 5,000. That number does not seem to be especially impressive for the census of a nation. The fact is, that the source of the inspiration for the Bible knew that there were more stars than those visible.

That's all for tonight. BTW, if you are going to continue this discussion it needs to move back to the originating thread. We are covering the same material and it gets confusing.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

This is about the fighting with the Kings of Canaanan. It has nothing to do with making a reference to Genesis 1:1 in terms of proving the sun was created at that time in the narrative. The stars in question in the context of the verse are the stars that were in existence at the time the Kings of Canaanan were being fought against, not before the fourth day of creation when the stars are clearly made in the narrative.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger

.
Once again, this has nothing to do with the state of the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1:1 which is before any thing in the above narrative had ever taken place. Yes, a threat is made about shaking the heavens, which at this point in the narrative had already been separated into multiple levels known as the "heavens".

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded

.
Once again, way after the narrative of Genesis 1 God is reflecting back on how he made (asah) the earth (which shows how the terms "create" and "make" are used interchangeably in different places in the bible because in Genesis God "created" the heaven and earth mind you, it doesn't say that God made "asah" the heaven and earth back in Genesis 1:1 which is self defeating to you because you're arguing that they are not used interchangeably) and created man upon it. He stretched out the heavens, yes, and the separation of the waters above and below the earth is part of that. It happened on the second day according to the bible. Then on the fourth day God made ("asah") the sun and set it in the firmament, after the firmament had already been established on the second day. This verse has nothing to do with proving that the sun was created in narrative as of Genesis 1:1 because it doesn't refer to the state of the sky as of Genesis 1:1, rather it refers to well after that point in time.

I remember back in tenth grade bible class going through the teachers bible studies when I had a very abrupt realization as to what was going on in that bible class. You see, people think that they can use the bible the way a murder will take cut out words from a variety of media and paste them all together to present a note to the police, or whoever. None of the letters or words used are in context with one another! The teacher would take a single word, or a single sentence from a wide range of books in the bible that would jump between the new and old testaments, and then craft together what he was calling a "bible study" on "God's Word". I suppose that people think that because they consider the bible as a divine book that they can use it completely out of context like this in order to try and make any given point they themselves wish to make as if it were God given, whether or not it requires butchering severly the context of the bible verses in question.

That's what you've done with the above bible verses Stahrwe and I'm calling you out on it. That isn't the bible proving that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1 when the unseparated waters of the "shamayim" were created in the narrative, according to the context of the narrative, it's just you taking the bible out of context to try and avoid a major contradiction as of the first day of creation in the bible. I do have 12 years (more if you consider pre-first grade SDA Sabbath School classes and cradle role before that) of bible classes under my belt you freaking idiot, so you're not going to slide anything past me I can assure you of that. I can expose an out of context biblical apology better than you may have anticipated previously. I will break out the bible and I will check the context of everything you bring forward as "biblical" and I will kick your lying ass in the process every time you make a false assertion! There's no more Mr. Nice Guy at this point Stahrwe, not after you decided to accuse me of loosing to you! So far you have nothing "biblical" on your side to prove that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1. You haven't won a dam thing. You'd better start paying very close attention to the context of the bible verses that you bring forward for consideration from now on Stahrwe. You have failed at every attempt to twist the biblical narrative around to suite your personal liking. And that's where we remain. YEC has been put to rest and every effort you've made to lift it back up again has failed and had been proven a failure every single step of the way! So come on, keep at it tough guy. What else do you think you have that is going to change the fact that the bible starts off the first day with an errant contradiction, if interpreted "literally"?[/quote]

tat tvam asi wrote:Let's go ahead and make an even better example your folly in choosing these particular bible verses to refer back to the state of the heaven (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 shall we:

Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude

Let's see, the LORD has multiplied people to large numbers, like the stars of heaven. The heaven in question here is not the state of the heaven of Genesis 1:1, rather the state of heaven after the stars had been made on the fourth day, and well after people's number had multiplied on the earth which is likewise well after the stars had been made on the fourth day. Before the fourth day there's no indication whatsoever of any stars existing yet in the heaven at all.

You respondeed by asserting some invalid arguments which are out of context with the subject at hand. Let's go ahead and analyze them in-depth shall we:

Stahrwe wrote:Proof once again that you should have been paying attention at the SDA school instead of daydreaming. The reference is not to the number of people on the earth but to the number of descendents of the Jews.

Oh I was paying attention in bible class and to the bible Stahrwe. And I was busy calling people out on misrepresenting the bible with out of context assertions as well, from a young age. That's what is being proven here. The verse is addressed to "the people" in the bible, God's chosen people, which at this point in the narrative had multiplied 'like the stars of the heaven'. It looks like I didn't type "the" in front of "the people", which you tried to zero in on as if it's going to change a single thing for your argument. Missing "the" in front of "the people" when I was typing has zero to do with "the heaven and earth" which are created in Genesis 1:1! You trying to throw up a distraction about who the "people" in question are, or what you think their numbers were in relation to the stars in heaven, doesn't change the fact that verse is way out of context with "the heaven" created in Genesis 1:1 which was an unseparated waters with no firmament region nor sun, moon, or stars inhabiting the firmament region yet in the narrative. It's an out of context verse that uses the word "heaven" in a way that doesn't have any thing to do with proving that the heaven of Genesis 1:1 was inhabited by the sun, moon, or stars for that matter. And neither do any of the other verses you've provided either.

This is something you've posted on this thread as a response to what I've brought up on this thread and so we'll be discussing it right here on this thread so that all of the people on the various forums that I've linked to the show down on this thread can observe the inevitable outcome and learn from it. This thread now comes up in google and other search engines for the word "shamayim" so that people seeking info on "shamayim" can easily find this discussion. Your dishonesty has only increased with your last response and people can see that as they look into the meaning of "shamayim" and how it applies to Genesis 1:1! You'd better spend more timing thinking about your responses and considering just how out of context they actually are with Genesis 1:1. I want this debate right here in the Christian and Bible forum so that I can debate you from two fronts - philosophy, belief, and religion as well as the bible and christianity...

Oh, and here's a link to a fellow Christian arguing that the sun was made (formed) on the fourth day, after the firmament region had already been separated from the waters above and below on the second day of creation:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... Raqia.aspx

The Great Stretch

To understand what happens next in Creation, we must gain additional clarity by going outside the book of Genesis and allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. Observe the following representative verses, there are some 17 in all:

Isaiah 45:12—It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens [shamayim] with My hands...

Isaiah 51:13—That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens [shamayim]...

Jeremiah 10:12—It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens [shamayim]...

God stretched out the heavens. Since we already know that God called the raqia “heaven” (shamayim), these verses speak of the great stretching out of the raqia. Let us again picture Creation taking place; the Lord places His hands upon the ball of water, draws them apart, the raqia stretches out in all directions—and outer space is created, with light years passing in a moment of time. The waters below the raqia become the primeval, water-enshrouded Earth, while those above the raqia lie outside of our experience, at the outermost boundary of this universe, beyond the reach of even the Hubble telescope. In the process of stretching out the raqia, the glowing plasma formed on the first day stretches out also, permeating the raqia as its boundary extends to the furthest reaches of the cosmos. Thus ends the second day.

As we continue reading Genesis 1, verses 14, 15 and 17 tell us that on the fourth day, the swirling eddies of plasma that stretched out with the raqia on the second day coalesce, becoming the galaxies and all they contain, while the plasma closest to Earth comes together to become our Sun. These verses, together with verse 20, give confirmation that the raqia deals with the atmosphere and outer space...

tat tvam asi wrote: This is something you've posted on this thread as a response to what I've brought up on this thread and so we'll be discussing it right here on this thread so that all of the people on the various forums that I've linked to the show down on this thread can observe the inevitable outcome and learn from it. This thread now comes up in google and other search engines for the word "shamayim" so that people seeking info on "shamayim" can easily find this discussion. Your dishonesty has only increased with your last response and people can see that as they look into the meaning of "shamayim" and how it applies to Genesis 1:1! You'd better spend more timing thinking about your responses and considering just how out of context they actually are with Genesis 1:1. I want this debate right here in the Christian and Bible forum so that I can debate you from two fronts - philosophy, belief, and religion as well as the bible and christianity...

The more the merrier and I am sure that Chris would like some new blood.

tat tvam asi wrote:Oh, and here's a link to a fellow Christian arguing that the sun was made (formed) on the fourth day, after the firmament region had already been separated from the waters above and below on the second day of creation:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... Raqia.aspx

The Great Stretch

To understand what happens next in Creation, we must gain additional clarity by going outside the book of Genesis and allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. Observe the following representative verses, there are some 17 in all:

Isaiah 45:12—It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens [shamayim] with My hands...

Isaiah 51:13—That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens [shamayim]...

Jeremiah 10:12—It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens [shamayim]...

God stretched out the heavens. Since we already know that God called the raqia “heaven” (shamayim), these verses speak of the great stretching out of the raqia. Let us again picture Creation taking place; the Lord places His hands upon the ball of water, draws them apart, the raqia stretches out in all directions—and outer space is created, with light years passing in a moment of time. The waters below the raqia become the primeval, water-enshrouded Earth, while those above the raqia lie outside of our experience, at the outermost boundary of this universe, beyond the reach of even the Hubble telescope. In the process of stretching out the raqia, the glowing plasma formed on the first day stretches out also, permeating the raqia as its boundary extends to the furthest reaches of the cosmos. Thus ends the second day.

As we continue reading Genesis 1, verses 14, 15 and 17 tell us that on the fourth day, the swirling eddies of plasma that stretched out with the raqia on the second day coalesce, becoming the galaxies and all they contain, while the plasma closest to Earth comes together to become our Sun. These verses, together with verse 20, give confirmation that the raqia deals with the atmosphere and outer space...

You seem to have overlooked the introductory paragraphs:

“Introduction
As we read the narrative of Genesis 1, we repeatedly encounter the word “expanse” or “firmament.” These words are used to translate the Hebrew term raqia, but carry baggage that tends to predispose how we English readers interpret these verses, hindering our ability to derive their meaning on purely contextual grounds. Let us, therefore, try to follow the narrative by using the term raqia instead; doing so will, hopefully, help us understand it without unduly influencing us toward a particular interpretation. (Unless otherwise noted, all verses below follow the NASB.)

“To set the stage for this study, I suggest that if we read Genesis 1:1–10 as a straightforward narrative, it teaches that in the only “beginning” that concerns us—a beginning separate from any other God may have initiated in eternity past, such as the creation of His abode, or the creation of the angels—God began by creating the Earth. Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement that succeeding verses elaborate on. He did not begin by first creating the universe and then placing the Earth into it; but in creating the Earth, God was at the same time creating our entire universe, with the Earth being its first manifestation.

A Great Ball of Water
With the understanding that Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement, Genesis 1:2 signals the actual inception of Creation. It begins with the formation of the Earth and its universe as a single great body of water, formless and empty at the outset but presumably in the general shape of a sphere. From God’s perspective external to His creation, darkness lay “upon” the surface of the watery deep, but probably permeated the whole. Since God "dwells in unapproachable light" (1 Tim 6:16), I suspect that this darkness “upon the face of the deep” (KJV) was an integral part of the incipient universe, a darkness not existing as a separate entity; in other words, God was not doing His creating work in the dark.”

Tat, you did read the whole article didn’t you? If so, two questions: 1) Why did you post a reference to it when much of it supports my position? 2) Did you think I would not look at it so you could get away with posting the nonsense portions?

Rick Lanser and I disagree on a number of elements of interpretation. It appears you did not understand what he was saying in a good deal of the article but I appreciate you promoting a site which casts doubt on carbon dating, takes seriously the search for Noah’s Ark, and supports the position that it is impossible for the morality of the Bible to be a man-made fabrication. We are making progress and I encourage others to visit. Any website which begins with:
“In March of this year we were treated to yet another edition of information media’s relentless infatuation with reinterpreting and redefining the Bible with its insufferable post-modern spin. The Discovery Channel’s, Who Framed Jesus? was released just in time to throw a wet blanket on anyone who might actually believe the Bible’s account of the events leading up to Jesus’ crucifixion. Paraded before us was the predictable mixed bag of scholars and pseudo-scholars, who, in the typical fashion of those who have rejected the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible, offered their mush-minded opinions of what must have “really” been the cause of Jesus’ supposed “framing”. Forgive my dripping disdain for such academic arrogance“

Can’t be all bad. Thank you tat for sharing http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... Raqia.aspx with us.

tat tvam asi wrote:Let's go ahead and make an even better example your folly in choosing these particular bible verses to refer back to the state of the heaven (shamayim) in Genesis 1:1 shall we:

Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude

.
Let's see, the LORD has multiplied people to large numbers, like the stars of heaven. The heaven in question here is not the state of the heaven of Genesis 1:1, rather the state of heaven after the stars had been made on the fourth day, and well after people's number had multiplied on the earth which is likewise well after the stars had been made on the fourth day. Before the fourth day there's no indication whatsoever of any stars existing yet in the heaven at all.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

This is about the fighting with the Kings of Canaanan. It has nothing to do with making a reference to Genesis 1:1 in terms of proving the sun was created at that time in the narrative. The stars in question in the context of the verse are the stars that were in existence at the time the Kings of Canaanan were being fought against, not before the fourth day of creation when the stars are clearly made in the narrative.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger

.
Once again, this has nothing to do with the state of the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1:1 which is before any thing in the above narrative had ever taken place. Yes, a threat is made about shaking the heavens, which at this point in the narrative had already been separated into multiple levels known as the "heavens".

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded

.
Once again, way after the narrative of Genesis 1 God is reflecting back on how he made (asah) the earth (which shows how the terms "create" and "make" are used interchangeably in different places in the bible because in Genesis God "created" the heaven and earth mind you, it doesn't say that God made "asah" the heaven and earth back in Genesis 1:1 which is self defeating to you because you're arguing that they are not used interchangeably) and created man upon it. He stretched out the heavens, yes, and the separation of the waters above and below the earth is part of that. It happened on the second day according to the bible. Then on the fourth day God made ("asah") the sun and set it in the firmament, after the firmament had already been established on the second day. This verse has nothing to do with proving that the sun was created in narrative as of Genesis 1:1 because it doesn't refer to the state of the sky as of Genesis 1:1, rather it refers to well after that point in time.

I remember back in tenth grade bible class going through the teachers bible studies when I had a very abrupt realization as to what was going on in that bible class. You see, people think that they can use the bible the way a murder will take cut out words from a variety of media and paste them all together to present a note to the police, or whoever. None of the letters or words used are in context with one another!

Poor example: The source of letters and words is irrelevant to the final product. On the other hand, there are many lazy people who won’t bother to check verses, and others who are trying to prove something.

tat tvam asi wrote:The teacher would take a single word, or a single sentence from a wide range of books in the bible that would jump between the new and old testaments, and then craft together what he was calling a "bible study" on "God's Word". I suppose that people think that because they consider the bible as a divine book that they can use it completely out of context like this in order to try and make any given point they themselves wish to make as if it were God given, whether or not it requires butchering severly the context of the bible verses in question.

There is nothing wrong with what you describe provided that it is done in an intellectually honest manner. There are rules for hermeneutics which are well established and provided that your teachers did not violate them were possibly in safe territory. I must add a caveat though. SDA is not a mainstream denomination. There are things they teach which are clearly not in accordance with what most Christians believe. Some go so far as to call them a cult. They tend to focus too much on certain aspects of the Bible, while ignoring others. That is not a healthy diet and invariably leads to a distorted view.

tat tvam asi wrote:That's what you've done with the above bible verses Stahrwe and I'm calling you out on it. That isn't the bible proving that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1 when the unseparated waters of the "shamayim" were created in the narrative, according to the context of the narrative, it's just you taking the bible out of context to try and avoid a major contradiction as of the first day of creation in the bible.

Actually it is not no matter how many times you repeat it. The problem you have is that your whole defense is set up against the Sun showing up on day 4. That is not correct based on my explanation of verse 1. I have posted three other sources (one of which you brought to my attention) which backup my claim that the sun et al were present before day 4 and you are incapable of refuting the argument.

tat tvam asi wrote:I do have 12 years (more if you consider pre-first grade SDA Sabbath School classes and cradle role before that) of bible classes under my belt you freaking idiot, so you're not going to slide anything past me I can assure you of that. I can expose an out of context biblical apology better than you may have anticipated previously. I will break out the bible and I will check the context of everything you bring forward as "biblical" and I will kick your lying ass in the process every time you make a false assertion! There's no more Mr. Nice Guy at this point Stahrwe, not after you decided to accuse me of loosing to you! So far you have nothing "biblical" on your side to prove that the sun was created in Genesis 1:1. You haven't won a dam thing. You'd better start paying very close attention to the context of the bible verses that you bring forward for consideration from now on Stahrwe. You have failed at every attempt to twist the biblical narrative around to suite your personal liking. And that's where we remain. YEC has been put to rest and every effort you've made to lift it back up again has failed and had been proven a failure every single step of the way! So come on, keep at it tough guy. What else do you think you have that is going to change the fact that the bible starts off the first day with an errant contradiction, if interpreted "literally"?

So you gave up on that other project of collecting all my contradictory statements?

You have lost the argument and you know it. My verses did not need to be in context. What you asked me to do was:

tat tvam asi wrote: Re: The Canaanite Heaven in Genesis 1:1?
You haven't provided so much as one instance where the "shamayim" of Genesis 1:1 refers to anything other than the unseparated, pre multi-level "heavens",

Mon May 17, 2010 10:08 am

On that basis the verses I provided all refer to heaven as something other than, “the unseparated, pre multi-level ‘heavens’”. To demand that I come up with a verse which refers back to Genesis 1:1 specifically belies your claim that you have studied the Bible. I don’t know what you were doing but it wasn’t much studying.


Deuteronomy 1:10 (King James Version)
10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Judges 5:20 (King James Version)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Isaiah 13:13 (King James Version)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded