Hi Nova, I will be really interested to hear what you think of The Passion of the Western Mind. I made some comments on his discussion of archetypes in the thread on Tarnas on Paradigm Shift. Welcome to Booktalk.

Lawrence, it takes a lot of character to make such a post.

I'll follow everyone's lead. If everyone wants to start the process for selecting a new non-fiction book then please make suggestions AND comment on other people's suggestions in http://www.booktalk.org/we-need-non-fic ... t7852.html. We can continue on with the Tarnas book, but also add a new non-fiction book right away. Tarnas is in Feb. and March. So let's quickly select a March and April non-fiction book. This will require skipping the poll and just having an open and honest discussion of the books being suggested. Polls take too long. We should be able to select a good book within 5 days. Head to that thread to add your input please.

Roger that Chris, I'm a little spooked about recommending right now but I'll certainly try to be more discerning in choosing a book appropriate for our friends on BT. And have you seen Robert Tulip's posts. Wow. If he continues you could charge admission and give graduates a degree. L

I went back and read this again. The author is condensing a lot of information in this chapter.

The Goddess based religion of the people native to the area who were invaded by the Indo-European tribes with their male based world view was interesting. The fusion over time reminded me of the Christian/Pagan merging in Europe. Interesting how belief systems are either/or, male/female, and even with a fusion the dominant is the male. Perhaps because the eventual ruling class usually brings the male based model?

I was somewhat aware of the Sophists. Interesting that the author saw them as a bridge belief between the Gods and Rationality. It was also interesting how the author saw their system of defining mans purpose as a failure and destructive to the Greek world.

The Philosphers Quest and the Universal Mind

My Glod! Plato was a mystic!

I have done a fair amount of reading about the Christian Mystics. I was very much struck by how Plato forward the same language is used to describe The God. I say "The God" because I am not sure what term to use that would describe what underlies them all. I do believe Plato was seeing, and describing, was the samething Christian Mystics were in touch with. The beauty of the eternal.

Page 41. The author writes about Plato and his belief that one has to overcome the separation of self from the divine. To embrace it like a lover. He goes on to describe the famous cave of illusions. To know "The God" one has to move beyond the worlds illusions. Something that Buddha, among many others, has spoken of.

Page 44. The author writes about how Plato thought these truths, visions, whatever, should be communicated indirectly. This is not unusual and repeats itself through out history.

nova wrote:The Philosphers Quest and the Universal Mind

My Glod! Plato was a mystic!

I have done a fair amount of reading about the Christian Mystics. I was very much struck by how Plato forward the same language is used to describe The God. I say "The God" because I am not sure what term to use that would describe what underlies them all. I do believe Plato was seeing, and describing, was the samething Christian Mystics were in touch with. The beauty of the eternal.

There's a fine line between Plato's concept of eternal Ideas and the eternal gods of Homer. It's not surprising that these early philosophers would gravitate towards mysticism. They didn't possess the most basic of scientific facts which we take for granted now, especially with regards to biology and astronomy. And yet these philosophers established a strong foundation for the scientific method and an empirical approach to understanding the world, even if these methods had mystical underpinnings. This time period was a "punctuated equilibrium" for advancement of human knowledge. In that respect, it represented a huge movement away from primitivism and towards the modern philosophical approach.

Me, I'm reading this book as a sort of primer to philosophy, so I don't mind that much of the text is an overview. I was about to start reading Will Durant's The Story of Philosophy, which I've read before. I really need to bring myself up to speed in the area of philosophy and so far, this seems a really good place to start.

Yes,

I would like to take a Philosophy 101 class someday. I saw this book as an introduction to the subject. Plus, it also fits with another project I am working on.

nova wrote:I went back and read this again. The author is condensing a lot of information in this chapter.

You'll find that to be true in every chapter.

nova wrote:The Goddess based religion of the people native to the area who were invaded by the Indo-European tribes with their male based world view was interesting.

As I understand it, many mainstream historians doubt that the Goddess-dominated religion was ever that prevalent. There isn't strong evidence for that theory, which appeals to people who wish society hasn't always been so male-dominated. Of course, it's difficult to reach any conclusions about the beliefs of non-literate societies.

nova wrote:My Glod! Plato was a mystic!

For most of human history, almost everyone was a mystic. Even Isaac Newton, who established the laws of physics, was fascinated by subjects like alchemy and theology.

Grim wrote:Considering the vast amount of books currently in circulation I find it hard to accept that one should solicit opinion from any quasi-legitamate source without desiring something more...engaging.

But then again is this quasi-legitimacy not the modus operandi of the public internet forum? The very Wikipedia of intellectual sources well suited to be a "brilliant bestseller"?

The risk is that in the future one would rely solely on a single text, or those presenting themselves as having answers without bothering to show their processes believing their work to be comprehensive. That one would forget the importance of a valid argument thinking that summations and results alone are effective substitutes. It is my opinion that in this circumstance one would easily lose their ability to think critically for themselves concerning the Greek World View and be prone to acceptance of poorly reasoned, superficial and most worryingly fashionable normative applications of theoretical relationships.

I think that one of the true failings of the education system, at least in the US, is that people learn to take things at face value. People have difficulty consuming criticism and research because they don't think to question it. In this world of information overload, this predilection is particularly problematic.

I've enjoyed Tarnas' work thus far, especially considering the changes in abstractness in Plato's ideals. My only problem is that Tarnas really does distill everything with this authoritative tone. This makes it quite easy for him to slip in controversial views and make them seem as if they've been vetted by general consensus.

caseyjo wrote: My only problem is that Tarnas really does distill everything with this authoritative tone. This makes it quite easy for him to slip in controversial views and make them seem as if they've been vetted by general consensus.

Actually, I think any alternatives would be worse. There could be a collection of essays by different authors about Plato, or one person would review the different ways of interpreting Plato. However, those approaches aren't feasible in a book covering the full history of western philosophy. A coherent authoritative voice seems worthwhile.

Reading multiple books can give one a broader perspective on a subject. Still, given the vast assortment of topics that I'd like to learn more about, I prefer to read books covering different subject matter, even though that means my perspective is distorted by the particular authors I happen to select.