• In total there are 4 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 4 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Who is Richard Tarnas?

#79: Feb. - March 2010 (Non-Fiction)
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: The possible benefit of our discourse

Unread post

Lawrence wrote:I don’t believe any thoughtful person doubts the conclusion that we are living today in a world society that has no standard of measurements for any aspect of civilization. From architecture to zoology, everyone is doing what is right in his/her own mind. And no one knows what to do about it. Or whether such a condition is good or bad. What we do know is we can’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again. But where do we go from here?
F.A. Hayek wrote: If in the first attempt to create a world of free men we have failed, we must try again. The guiding principle that a policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy remains as true today as it was in the nineteenth century
Lawrence, could the problem as you state it above also be termed an excess of freedom, in some sense? Then, you approve of Hayek's prescription of freedom as the solution. Do these jibe? Thanks.
DWill
User avatar
oblivion

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
Likes the book better than the movie
Posts: 826
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:10 am
14
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 188 times
Been thanked: 172 times

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

Whoa! I just received the book yesterday. This means I'lll have to stay up all night reading to catch up with you guys (gee darn). Certainly looks to be a good discussion! Cheers!
Gods and spirits are parasitic--Pascal Boyer

Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. --André Gide

Reading is a majority skill but a minority art. --Julian Barnes
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Freedom

Unread post

DWill wrote:Lawrence, could the problem as you state it above also be termed an excess of freedom, in some sense? Then, you approve of Hayek's prescription of freedom as the solution. Do these jibe? Thanks. DWill
Hayek sees a distinction between freedom and anarchy. Freedom for Hayek means private enterprise governed by rule of law. It goes back to Hegel's concept of freedom as the recognition of necessity. For Hayek, the highest freedom derives from realization of the highest potential, and free enterprise is the only source of resources to free people from drudgery, while state socialism leads to bondage and stagnation. Hayek is unfairly maligned as an advocate of laissez faire economics, whereas in fact he recognises a strong role for the state as providing a level playing field through transparent regulation and rule of law.

I don't have a clear recollection of freedom as a main theme for Tarnas. As Chris noted, Tarnas has an interest in astrology, a topic which often produces a fatalist outlook. I suspect that Tarnas sees the transformation away from modern concepts of freedom as providing a path to a new sense of liberation arising from self knowledge. The modern concept of freedom, for example grounded in Locke and Descartes, is very culturally determined and has actually reduced freedom for exploited people while claiming to be universal.

I would be interested in people's thoughts about the relation between freedom and capitalism, and to what extent western concepts are universal.
User avatar
Lawrence

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
Senior
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:58 pm
15
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 53 times

For DWill

Unread post

For DWill January 28, 2010

If you have never been to Esalen I think it will be difficult to understand or appreciate the conclusions Tarnas reached to be a goal for humankind. When I visited Esalen 35 years ago it was a touchy-feely place where all solutions revolved around getting in touch with your inner self. Notice on page 47 he defines Logos, page 60 Nous, and page 61 Telos.

On page 438 he prepares us to receive his insight:
“And as with the evolution of scientific paradigms, so with all forms of human thought. The emergence of a new philosophical paradigm, whether that of Plato or Aquinas, Kant or Heidegger, is never simply the result of improved logical reasoning from the observed data. Rather, each philosophy, each metaphysical perspective and epistemology, reflects the emergence of a global experiential gestalt [you need to understand this word to understand his conclusions] that informs that philosopher’s vision, that governs his or her reasoning and observations, and that ultimately affects the entire cultural and sociological context within which the philosopher’s vision is taking form.”
Then start reading on page 441, he floats into a discourse about the masculine domination controlling western civilization and creating all the problems and on 443 he presents his solution:
“And this dramatic development is not just a compensation, not just a return of the repressed (feminine spirit), as I believe this has all along been the underlying goal of Western intellectual and spiritual evolution. For the deepest passion of the Western mind has been to reunite with the ground of its being. [emphasis added] The driving impulse of the West’s masculine consciousness has been its dialectical quest not only to realize itself, to forge its own autonomy, but also, finally, to recover its connection with the whole, to come to terms with the great feminine principle in life: to differentiate itself from but then rediscover and reunite with the feminine, with the mystery of life, of nature, of soul[emphasis added.”
Well DWill that’s what I understand is his conclusion. I didn’t say I agreed with his conclusions but his analysis of the evolution of philosophy in Western Civilization was very clear, insightful, and useful to me. That’s why I enjoyed Jacques Barzun’s book From Dawn to Decadence. His conclusion is there are the following forces acting on the emotions as gravity acts on the body. They are: Emancipation, Primitivism, Individualism, Secularism, Self-Consciousness, Specialization, Analysis, Reductivim, Scientism, and Abstraction which he carefully defines and then shows what historical activity, during the last 500 years, was a result of one or more of the above forces being addressed by different segments of society at different times. I don’t recall Barzun ever mentioned freedom nor Tarnas for that matter.
nova
Eligible to vote in book polls!
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:01 am
14
Location: Washington DC
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

Outstanding discussion already. I just ordered the book through the link.
JulianTheApostate
Masters
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am
18
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

It's surprising that Tarnas takes astrology so seriously. The intellectual sophistication necessary to write an exceptional book like The Passion of the Western Mind seems incompatible with the intellectual sloppiness I associate with astrology. His belief in astrology doesn't detract from my opinion of the book; it's just unexpected. For more background, here's the Wikipedia article about Tarnas.

Robert Tulip:
I would be interested in people's thoughts about the relation between freedom and capitalism, and to what extent western concepts are universal.
FYI, this book focuses on philosophy in terms of understanding the world, as opposed to moral or political philosophy.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

JulianTheApostate wrote:It's surprising that Tarnas takes astrology so seriously. The intellectual sophistication necessary to write an exceptional book like The Passion of the Western Mind seems incompatible with the intellectual sloppiness I associate with astrology. His belief in astrology doesn't detract from my opinion of the book; it's just unexpected. For more background, here's the Wikipedia article about Tarnas.

Robert Tulip:
I would be interested in people's thoughts about the relation between freedom and capitalism, and to what extent western concepts are universal.
FYI, this book focuses on philosophy in terms of understanding the world, as opposed to moral or political philosophy.
Hi Julian. Your point about the sloppiness of astrology is well made. Popular astrology is extremely sloppy, relying on hunches rather than evidence. Overall, astrology proceeds by anecdote rather than evidence - "I know some people who are Leo's so all Leo's must be like that" is a very illogical way to form beliefs. It is no surprise that rational people's attitude towards astrology is so contemptuous, given that its role in mass culture is somewhat akin to creationism in pushing society towards a cosmology that lacks evidence. However, the problem is more complex than that.

I have had a long interest in the relation between astrology and science. I found Tarnas' book Cosmos and Psyche very good, although it still suffers from the anecdotal method that bedevils most astrology. I met Richard when he visited Australia a few years ago, and I quizzed him on this question of how astrology sits against the mainstream content of The Passion of the Western Mind. He said (or at least this is the impression I formed) that his interest is to formulate a new wholistic paradigm of attunement to the cosmos, and that Passion of the Western Mind was essentially preparatory for his real work on this agenda. Cosmos and Psyche looks at the patterns of the outer planets, and argues there are clear trends in history.

Tarnas describes the evidence he finds of planetary cycles as 'compelling'. Although his method is more systematic than conventional folk astrology, it suffers from the problem that all astrological effects are so weak that it has been impossible to design statistical tests that will deliver predictable results, except in the weak case of the Gauquelin planetary effects. Most astrologers are more interested in intuition than statistics, so by astrological standards Tarnas is compelling, even though his methods are not statistical. My view is that large scale epidemiological tests could measure for weak astrological effects, for example on Tarnas' main theme of planetary transits, such as when Saturn returns to the position it occupied when you were born. That is another matter.

On freedom, I think Tarnas might question your distinction between political philosophy and epistemology. His argument seems to be that every epistemology has a politics, for example Locke's tabula rasa argument served as a basis to reject religious forms of thought by privileging the modern rational capitalist individual.

Your namesake Julian the Apostate had, if I am not mistaken, a prime agenda of restoring the pagan astrological worldview in the face of Christian hostility.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
JulianTheApostate
Masters
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am
18
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:On freedom, I think Tarnas might question your distinction between political philosophy and epistemology.
While those kinds of philosophy influence each other, as I recall the book spent a lot more time on epistemology than on political philosophy.
User avatar
caseyjo
The Great Gabsby
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:54 pm
14
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

Just ordered the book over the weekend, so it seems I'll have to read quickly to catch up as well.
Robert Tulip wrote:
JulianTheApostate wrote:It's surprising that Tarnas takes astrology so seriously. The intellectual sophistication necessary to write an exceptional book like The Passion of the Western Mind seems incompatible with the intellectual sloppiness I associate with astrology. His belief in astrology doesn't detract from my opinion of the book; it's just unexpected. For more background, here's the Wikipedia article about Tarnas.

Robert Tulip:
I would be interested in people's thoughts about the relation between freedom and capitalism, and to what extent western concepts are universal.
FYI, this book focuses on philosophy in terms of understanding the world, as opposed to moral or political philosophy.
Hi Julian. Your point about the sloppiness of astrology is well made. Popular astrology is extremely sloppy, relying on hunches rather than evidence. Overall, astrology proceeds by anecdote rather than evidence - "I know some people who are Leo's so all Leo's must be like that" is a very illogical way to form beliefs. It is no surprise that rational people's attitude towards astrology is so contemptuous, given that its role in mass culture is somewhat akin to creationism in pushing society towards a cosmology that lacks evidence. However, the problem is more complex than that.

I have had a long interest in the relation between astrology and science. I found Tarnas' book Cosmos and Psyche very good, although it still suffers from the anecdotal method that bedevils most astrology. I met Richard when he visited Australia a few years ago, and I quizzed him on this question of how astrology sits against the mainstream content of The Passion of the Western Mind. He said (or at least this is the impression I formed) that his interest is to formulate a new wholistic paradigm of attunement to the cosmos, and that Passion of the Western Mind was essentially preparatory for his real work on this agenda. Cosmos and Psyche looks at the patterns of the outer planets, and argues there are clear trends in history.

Tarnas describes the evidence he finds of planetary cycles as 'compelling'. Although his method is more systematic than conventional folk astrology, it suffers from the problem that all astrological effects are so weak that it has been impossible to design statistical tests that will deliver predictable results, except in the weak case of the Gauquelin planetary effects. Most astrologers are more interested in intuition than statistics, so by astrological standards Tarnas is compelling, even though his methods are not statistical. My view is that large scale epidemiological tests could measure for weak astrological effects, for example on Tarnas' main theme of planetary transits, such as when Saturn returns to the position it occupied when you were born. That is another matter.

On freedom, I think Tarnas might question your distinction between political philosophy and epistemology. His argument seems to be that every epistemology has a politics, for example Locke's tabula rasa argument served as a basis to reject religious forms of thought by privileging the modern rational capitalist individual.

Your namesake Julian the Apostate had, if I am not mistaken, a prime agenda of restoring the pagan astrological worldview in the face of Christian hostility.
The mentions of astrology really piqued my interest, as it seems so strange that someone interested in writing such a comprehensive book would believe such fluff. Looking at his wikipedia entry, I see that he's at the California Institute of Integral Studies, which is definitely a fringe university. According to wikipedia, "All programs attempt to combine mainstream academic standards with a spiritual orientation, including influences from a broad spectrum of mystical or esoteric traditions." Based on this, I don't think I'll agree with all his ideas about western philosophy, so this should be an interesting read!
JulianTheApostate
Masters
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am
18
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Who is Richard Tarnas?

Unread post

Actually, I didn't detect anything fringy about the book, having read it without knowing anything about Tarnas. It struck me as a very comprehensive and level-headed overview of Western philosophy.

Now, it's possible that someone who's more knowledgeable about philosophy or who's aware of Tarnas's background might view the book differently.
Post Reply

Return to “The Passion of the Western Mind - by Richard Tarnas”