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Young Goodman Brown
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
Thanks Suzanne, Oblivion, Saffron for getting this thing going. I've put off reading the story, but I'll get to it later today.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
This story touched a chord of terror within me......that's why I belatedly also responded to the "Which movie scared you as a kid" thread: not knowing if the persons nearest and dearest to you can be trusted, that they may be part of something horrific--and not being able to prove it either way, pulls at the very origin and center of fear, something that is called "Urangst" in German. Primeval fear. What if a child cannot trust its mother?
Of course, this takes on other dimensions when one takes into account that Brown's wife is named "Faith"--a blatant personification. Apply the "Urangst", the fear, the mistrust to something that should (at least theoretically) give you comfort and joy.
Hawthorne was definitely poking about in a hornet's nest.
Of course, this takes on other dimensions when one takes into account that Brown's wife is named "Faith"--a blatant personification. Apply the "Urangst", the fear, the mistrust to something that should (at least theoretically) give you comfort and joy.
Hawthorne was definitely poking about in a hornet's nest.
Gods and spirits are parasitic--Pascal Boyer
Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. --André Gide
Reading is a majority skill but a minority art. --Julian Barnes
Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
I've added a link to this short story discussion on our home page to give it some visibility. And I also mentioned this short story discussion on the Facebook page, but our Facebook members seem to not be very interested in posting on the forums. Hopefully we get a few to come on over and join.
http://www.facebook.com/booktalkfans
http://www.facebook.com/booktalkfans
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
This story has a garden of eden feel to it. Faith asks her young husband not to go, but he chooses to gain knowledge and he continues on the path. Then, once he gains knowledge he is punished for it, albeit, he punishes himself. The devil and the serpent certainly adds to this feeling.
The symbolism in this story is fantastic. Something that struck me, among other things, was the stick the devil gives Brown after Brown refuses the serpent stick. The stick is almost like an invitation, "please take this and join us". Brown does accept the invitation of the smaller stick. Maybe he wanted just a small dose of evil. He just couldn't resist the temptation.
I can hear the cord of terror too, but I felt a sense of sadness as well. I suppose we all need to lose part of our innocence at some point in our lives, but the life of Young Goodman Brown is changed completely and forever. I say we lose part of our innocence, because to lose all of it, would make life very sad. To believe that at the core of everyone lies only evil must be unbearable. Because, he would consider himself truly evil too.oblivion wrote:This story touched a chord of terror within me......
The symbolism in this story is fantastic. Something that struck me, among other things, was the stick the devil gives Brown after Brown refuses the serpent stick. The stick is almost like an invitation, "please take this and join us". Brown does accept the invitation of the smaller stick. Maybe he wanted just a small dose of evil. He just couldn't resist the temptation.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
I like how the story is set up with Goodman Brown going off on a mission at night. There's a great mood like in a ghost story, an underlying sense of terror and danger always just on the periphery. In that day, there would have been a great fear of the woods and the savages living there.Suzanne wrote:This story has a garden of eden feel to it. Faith asks her young husband not to go, but he chooses to gain knowledge and he continues on the path. Then, once he gains knowledge he is punished for it, albeit, he punishes himself. The devil and the serpent certainly adds to this feeling.
When we meet the devil, I really like the description of his walking stick: "which bore the likeness of a great black snake, so curiously wrought that it might also be seen to twist and wriggle itself like a living serpent. This, of course, must have been an ocular deception, assisted by the uncertain light."
The snake's movements become more obvious in other scenes, not just a trick of the light.
So yes, it seems the temptation towards evil is strong in this community. It actually almost feels like a parody in that respect. I don't quite know what Hawthorne is saying about the Quaker mindset, but he seems to be commenting on the idea that humans gravitate towards evil and that this is the true nature of man. It certainly seems to be true of this community or at least that is "Goodman's" fear.
Interesting story. I think I'll read it again.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
I heard about "Young Goodman Brown" in Stephen King's collection of short stories, Everything's Eventual. King writes a blurb about each of his "dark tales" and here's what he had to say about his O.Henry-winning story, "The Man in the Black Suit:"
My favorite Nathaniel Hawthorne story is "Young Goodman Brown." I think it's one of the best ten stories ever written by an American. "The Man in the Black Suit" is my homage to it." As for the particulars, I was talking with a friend of mine one day, and he happened to mention that his Grandpa believed—truly believed—that he had seen the Devil in the woods, back around the turn of the century. Grandpa said the Devil came out of the woods and started talking to him just like a natural man. While Grandpa was chinning with him, he realized that the man from the woods had burning red eyes and smelled like sulphur. My friend's Grandpa became convinced that the Devil would kill him if he realized Grandpa had caught on, so he did his best to make normal conversation until he could get away. My story grew from my friend's story. . . . I thought the finished product a rather humdrum folktale told in pedestrian language, certainly miles from the Hawthorne story I liked so much.
Anyway, I don't have much to say about "Young Goodman Brown" and truth be told I actually liked "The Man in the Black Suit" better. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put this particular Hawthorne tale in the top ten stories by an American.
By the way, the title of King's story reminds me of one of Bob Dylan's great songs, "The Man in the Long Black Coat." I'm intrigued with the following lines from that song:
. . .Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
I think this is a certain Puritan idea that was firmly entrenched in religion back in the day. Hawthorne's story touches on that theme. And obviously Dylan's song does too. There's a certain apocalyptic quality to both, although as I said earlier it could be that Hawthorne is satirizing the idea.
Edit note: this from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Goodman_Brown
Man In The Long Black Coat
by Bob Dylan
Crickets are chirpin' the water is high
There's a soft cotton dress on the line hangin' dry
Window wide open African trees
Bent over backwards from a hurricane breeze
Not a word of goodbye not even a note
She gone with the man in the long black coat.
Somebody seen him hangin' around
As the old dance hall on the outskirts of town
He looked into her eyes when she stopped him to ask
If he wanted to dance he had a face like a mask
Somebody said from the bible he'd quote
There was dust on the man in the long black coat.
Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
It ain't easy to swallow it sticks in the throat
She gave her heart to the man in the long black coat.
There are no mistakes in life some people say
It is true sometimes you can see it that way
But people don't live or die people just float
She went with the man in the long black coat.
There's smoke on the water it's been there since June
Tree trunks unprooted beneath the high crescent moon
Feel the pulse and vibration and the rumbling force
Somebody is out there beating on a dead horse
She never said nothing there was nothing she wrote
She gone with the man in the long black coat.
My favorite Nathaniel Hawthorne story is "Young Goodman Brown." I think it's one of the best ten stories ever written by an American. "The Man in the Black Suit" is my homage to it." As for the particulars, I was talking with a friend of mine one day, and he happened to mention that his Grandpa believed—truly believed—that he had seen the Devil in the woods, back around the turn of the century. Grandpa said the Devil came out of the woods and started talking to him just like a natural man. While Grandpa was chinning with him, he realized that the man from the woods had burning red eyes and smelled like sulphur. My friend's Grandpa became convinced that the Devil would kill him if he realized Grandpa had caught on, so he did his best to make normal conversation until he could get away. My story grew from my friend's story. . . . I thought the finished product a rather humdrum folktale told in pedestrian language, certainly miles from the Hawthorne story I liked so much.
Anyway, I don't have much to say about "Young Goodman Brown" and truth be told I actually liked "The Man in the Black Suit" better. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put this particular Hawthorne tale in the top ten stories by an American.
By the way, the title of King's story reminds me of one of Bob Dylan's great songs, "The Man in the Long Black Coat." I'm intrigued with the following lines from that song:
. . .Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
I think this is a certain Puritan idea that was firmly entrenched in religion back in the day. Hawthorne's story touches on that theme. And obviously Dylan's song does too. There's a certain apocalyptic quality to both, although as I said earlier it could be that Hawthorne is satirizing the idea.
Edit note: this from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Goodman_Brown
And here are those lyrics:. . .Nathaniel Hawthorne is known in his writings for his criticism of the teachings of the Puritans.[citation needed] Young Goodman Brown is no different as it seeks to expose his perceived hypocrisy in Puritan doctrine. The plot and textual references in Young Goodman Brown reveal the Puritans as being like "a city upon a hill" as John Winthrop said, a founder of Puritanism, and wanting to be seen that way as good, holy men. However, their doctrine teaches that all men are inherently evil and they strive to cause each person to come to terms with this and realize their sinful nature. This hypocrisy that Hawthorne presents in his story is how he reflects on the hypocritical teachings of the Puritans. They taught that man was inherently evil in nature much in accordance to Enlightenment philosopher Thomas Hobbes. They presented themselves as pure, holy, righteous, moral people when, according to their very own teachings, they were beings fueled by sin and evil.
Man In The Long Black Coat
by Bob Dylan
Crickets are chirpin' the water is high
There's a soft cotton dress on the line hangin' dry
Window wide open African trees
Bent over backwards from a hurricane breeze
Not a word of goodbye not even a note
She gone with the man in the long black coat.
Somebody seen him hangin' around
As the old dance hall on the outskirts of town
He looked into her eyes when she stopped him to ask
If he wanted to dance he had a face like a mask
Somebody said from the bible he'd quote
There was dust on the man in the long black coat.
Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
It ain't easy to swallow it sticks in the throat
She gave her heart to the man in the long black coat.
There are no mistakes in life some people say
It is true sometimes you can see it that way
But people don't live or die people just float
She went with the man in the long black coat.
There's smoke on the water it's been there since June
Tree trunks unprooted beneath the high crescent moon
Feel the pulse and vibration and the rumbling force
Somebody is out there beating on a dead horse
She never said nothing there was nothing she wrote
She gone with the man in the long black coat.
-Geo
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
There isn't much I'd have to say about it, either. I can see why King might like it, though, since he works in a similar vein in his fiction. Most American short stories from this era--including Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, and even Twain--come from the tradition of the tale, rather than from the tradition that developed later along the lines of realistic fiction. The tale is now out of the mainstream of the short story form. None of the writers I mentioned, including Hawthorne, would be considered masters of the form. They are treated more like precursors of the short story.geo wrote: Anyway, I don't have much to say about "Young Goodman Brown" and truth be told I actually liked "The Man in the Black Suit" better. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put this particular Hawthorne tale in the top ten stories by an American.
YGB is both allegory and satire, to my thinking. The allegory is obvious, as allegory always is. The satire, concerning the religious obsessions and hypocrisies of the Puritans, is broad and fairly entertaining. I don't see much psychological coherence or depth here, unlike in Hawthorne's masterpiece, The Scarlet Letter.
For me there is a "Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name" quality to this story, too.By the way, the title of King's story reminds me of one of Bob Dylan's great songs, "The Man in the Long Black Coat." I'm intrigued with the following lines from that song:
Last edited by DWill on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
Hello DWILL, what would you say is the main difference that would distinguish a “tale” from a “short story”? It’s interesting that you mention Poe because he is famous for his short pieces of work and I have always read them as short stories. This leads me to Aesop and the Grimm brothers and their “fables” and “tales”. What links these would be the presence of a moral, that there is something to be learned after the reading. I’m not quite sure if I agree that modern day writers of short stories are not in fact writing “tales”, but thank you for piquing my curiosity to learn more about “tales” and “short stories” and “fables” and the differences between them. I am now gathering my memories of recently read short stories by modern writers to compare with YGB to notice similarities.DWill wrote:Most American short stories from this era--including Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, and even Twain--come from the tradition of the tale, rather than from the tradition that developed later along the lines of realistic fiction. The tale is now out of the mainstream of the short story form. None of the writers I mentioned, including Hawthorne, would be considered masters of the form. They are treated more like precursors of the short story.
I’m thinking that Dickens “A Christmas Carol” may also be placed in the category of a tale, or fable. Scrooge wonders if his experiences were real, or whether or not he was dreaming. This question is also a lingering question in YGB. It is unclear whether or not the events in YGB actually happened. I see the experiences of Brown to be dreamlike. If you read it as if it were a dream, I think it changes the overall outcome, or the overall feeling. For Brown to have this dream would suggest to me that he was predisposed to evil, and the dream featuring people from the church would somehow justify this evil. YGB could be seen as paranoid, HA! Just like some of Poe’s characters.
What’s interesting is that “Faith” never leaves him. She wants him to stay home, but then appears in the woods, “Faith” has followed him. I think there should have been a character named “Hope”, because hope is what he losses. His “Faith” changes, becomes less innocent, but is a constant in his life enduring a long marriage. His hope seems to have been lost forever.
It would be interesting to read the King story for comparison, however, I cannot find it on line, I don’t find this surprising.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
No, this is wrong, it is backwards. Brown has lost faith and hope in humanity due to the injustices commited on innocent people during the witch trials of Salem. He is predisposed to believing that people are primarily good, but because of the horror he sees in Salem, he realizes that he can no longer distinquish between good and evil. Hmm . . .Suzanne wrote:If you read it as if it were a dream, I think it changes the overall outcome, or the overall feeling. For Brown to have this dream would suggest to me that he was predisposed to evil, and the dream featuring people from the church would somehow justify this evil.
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Re: Young Goodman Brown
Thanks, Suzanne. You've done the story better justice than I did. As for this difference between the short story and the tale/fable, of course it's not a strict division, and I think you've indicated what some of the difference consists of. The tale to my mind would have a clearer ancestry in the oral tradition; it would consist of feats and wonders and perhaps as you said include a nice moral for the audience. It would tend to be populated by stock characters, and the point would be what happens to the characters, but not in a manner as to emphasize any subtle changes in their understandings or personalities. I think it's probably natural that a national literature would start with the tale/fable, as it's more a folk form than a literary one.Suzanne wrote: Hello DWILL, what would you say is the main difference that would distinguish a “tale” from a “short story”? It’s interesting that you mention Poe because he is famous for his short pieces of work and I have always read them as short stories. This leads me to Aesop and the Grimm brothers and their “fables” and “tales”. What links these would be the presence of a moral, that there is something to be learned after the reading. I’m not quite sure if I agree that modern day writers of short stories are not in fact writing “tales”, but thank you for piquing my curiosity to learn more about “tales” and “short stories” and “fables” and the differences between them. I am now gathering my memories of recently read short stories by modern writers to compare with YGB to notice similarities.
I’m thinking that Dickens “A Christmas Carol” may also be placed in the category of a tale, or fable. Scrooge wonders if his experiences were real, or whether or not he was dreaming. This question is also a lingering question in YGB. It is unclear whether or not the events in YGB actually happened. I see the experiences of Brown to be dreamlike. If you read it as if it were a dream, I think it changes the overall outcome, or the overall feeling. For Brown to have this dream would suggest to me that he was predisposed to evil, and the dream featuring people from the church would somehow justify this evil. YGB could be seen as paranoid, HA! Just like some of Poe’s characters.
What’s interesting is that “Faith” never leaves him. She wants him to stay home, but then appears in the woods, “Faith” has followed him. I think there should have been a character named “Hope”, because hope is what he losses. His “Faith” changes, becomes less innocent, but is a constant in his life enduring a long marriage. His hope seems to have been lost forever.
The tale and and the short story are both in the category of short fiction, but the second seems to develop after the first. Not that the tale dies out and the story completely takes over. Twain was still writiing partly in the tradition of the tale, while his exact contemporary Henry James had pioneered (for Americans) the literary short story. Twain's stories would lend themselves well to oral reading, while for me, at least, James is to be read silently.
Last edited by DWill on Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.