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American Gods Chapter One: Shadow Meets Wednesday

#68: May - July 2009 (Fiction)
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xtremeskiier114
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Suzanne E. Smith:
I see a theme of good versus evil running through this book, and I think that good will win. In my opinion, Wednesday is the symbol of evil and Shadow is the symbol of good, although Shadow certainly is not perfect
I agree with the good vs. evil theme. I think Gaiman may also be hinting that good and evil may need to exist in confluence. This can be seen where 1.)Shadow works for Wednesday and sort of adapts his ways...2.)evils gods and "good"gods are both represented in the book
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Re: Shadow

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Suzanne E. Smith wrote:Quote by Suzanne: Shadow payed for the crimes of others. Shadow is sacrificied to save others from their sins. This sounds a bit familiar. (Don't know how to box it). I agree with Suzanne that Shadow, the only redeeming person in the book as far as I am concerned, is a depressed masochist and has been sacrificed to save others and with Robert that Shadow may be a symbol for the good benevolent Jesus Christ, who becomes the modern God for Christians (if you believe like I do). I have read about 150 pages of this book, and am having a hard time getting through it. It is so sinister and violent in places; I cannot say that I like it. People and animals are treated disrespectfully, as though life has no meaning. I see a theme of good versus evil running through this book, and I think that good will win. In my opinion, Wednesday is the symbol of evil and Shadow is the symbol of good, although Shadow certainly is not perfect (drives the get away car for the bank heist but does not rob the bank). Could the old evil Gods and their requirement for sacrifice be the result of the way man thought back then? What I mean is, that perhaps during evolution, man changed his way of thinking (became civilized) and therefore the evil Odin ( God of death and war) who had to be appeased by the ultimate sacrifices (human and animal life) has evolved into our modern benevolent God who is satisfied with worship (or not).
Hello Suzanne, warm welcome to Booktalk, and thank you for joining the discussion on American Gods. (If you want to quote somebody else's post, just click on the "quote" button at the top right of their post).

You are right that the book is sinister at times, and I think Gaiman is deliberately disturbing, for example the sweet zombie. It is no wonder it won the Bram Stoker Award, named after the author of Dracula!

Your comments well illustrate the moral dilemmas raised by the book, including the confusion about what is good and what is evil. Wednesday clearly behaves in an immoral way, stealing, seducing, defrauding, lying and possibly worse. He sets up a moral framework at the outset in which he claims that the forgetting of the old gods is evidence of America's moral bankruptcy. Some readers would cheer at this, but some would be horrified.

The portrayal of the fat boy in Chapter Two is intended to caricature the moral depravity of mainstream American life, centred on Coca-Cola, donuts and gee-whiz selfish technology. The moral frame here is that Wednesday represents nature, and if only America could get back in touch with nature it would start to heal its depravity.

However, as you imply, if 'nature' demands blood sacrifice, then it is not a very appealing moral teacher. It opens the question whether and how Christianity is a more evolved moral system than the beliefs it conquered. Wednesday claims at one point that our indifference to road safety is evidence of our continued instinctive blood lust, and he could say the same thing about the accumulation of weapons of mass destruction.

Could Christian belief in the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ on the cross, with the cannibalism inherent in communion, just be a sublimated way of expressing the desire to kill the scapegoat and express ancient religious needs which are present in an overt obnoxious form in the pagan Norse beliefs about Odin?

We have quite a bit of debate on Booktalk about Christianity, and the site has been led by atheists and rationalists, so it is interesting to see you critique American Gods from the perspective of a Christian believer. My own view is that Christianity has very much to offer, but also has many errors, including its derision towards other religions, and its lack of recognition of its links to other religions. Building a natural theology drawing from all human heritage, recognising that the story of Jesus is at the centre, would produce a more honest and authentic engagement with religious issues, as I see it.

I really like the way Gaiman characterises the pagan Gods, trying to give them a contemporary believable personality that is in line with their myth. It is confronting, and encourages people to think about what they believe. Odin is a rather unpleasant character, although powerful and talented. Shadow may seem to be a Christ figure, but you have to remember that the motif of the crucified Saviour was actually widespread in pagan religion.

Part of Gaiman's agenda here seems to be a refusal to engage with the entirety of Hebraic and Greco-Roman thought. Perhaps he thinks these traditions are still so dominant that they have caused other rich and complex traditions to be forgotten, so he wants to give the others their time in the sun.

What did you mean by your comment "People and animals are treated disrespectfully, as though life has no meaning"?

Robert
Suzanne E. Smith
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People and animals are treated disrespectfully, as though life has no meaning.


Robert, thank you for your wonderful reply. I wish I knew more history and more about different religions, so that I could better interpret this novel.

Please see the quotes below from Czernobog to understand what I meant about the lack of respect for human and animal life in this book.
I get a job in the meat business. When the steer comes up the ramp, I was a knocker. There was an art to it. To the blow (using a sledgehammer). Then, in the fifties, they give us the bolt gun. Now you think, anybody can kill. Not so. It still takes skill.

If I win (checkers), I get to knock your brains (Shadow's) out. With the sledgehammer. First you go down on your knees. Then I hit you a blow with it, so you don't get up again.
In my opinion, Czernobog has depersonalized the act of murder and is a sociopath. He treats Shadow as though Shadow was another cow (most normal people could never even kill a cow--I could not). Czernobog appears to lack a Theory of Mind (from Primates and Philosophers), and is incapable of showing empathy, sympathy, fairness, or taking another's perspective.

Suzanne S.
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Shadow

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From "American Gods",
If I win (checkers), I get to knock your brains (Shadow's) out. With the sledgehammer. First you go down on your knees. Then I hit you a blow with it, so you don't get up again.
Hello Suzanne:

This will make more sense to you once you get further into the book.

I love Czernobog, he reminds me of an old crochety grandpa. When he gets together with his old friends, I can imagine them playing shuffle board.

The slaughterhouse discription is graphic, but very realistic. I remember reading "The Jungle", Sinclair Lewis. I have never forgotten it. I'm thinking that cows were brought up, because they are held sacred in India. Something held sacred in one country, is bashed in another.

I also enjoy Robert's comments. Great job Robert! Also, thanks for providing the supporting links, very entertaining.

I saw Shadow and his sacrifice to save others very interesting. I do not know of any other culture that made sacrificies for this reason, but as Robert pointed out, Gaiman is avoiding not only Christianity, but other established religions. I need to reasearch Norse mythology more.

One question I have concerns the three sisters. I see them more as the Auroras. Morning, Evening and Midnight. They certainly have a great responsibility.
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Suzanne, thank you for your reply. I also have read The Jungle and almost became a vegetarian afterwards. I want to become a vegetarian but keep putting it off. I know it is hypocritical to say that I don't believe in killing cows and chickens when I eat beef (a little) and chicken. I don't feel that badly about eating fish.

Do you think we will eventually evolve to the point where we consider it morally wrong to kill cows and chickens and other animals for food? That there will be laws that punish those who don't conform? I think it is a possibility, but not ever in my lifetime.
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Suzanne

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cows

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Suzanne E. Smith wrote:
Do you think we will eventually evolve to the point where we consider it morally wrong to kill cows and chickens and other animals for food? That there will be laws that punish those who don't conform? I think it is a possibility, but not ever in my lifetime.
This is a very interesting question, but I would have to say no. Vegans and vegetarians rely heavily on stores and restaurants that provide vegetarian fare. These establishments give our society the luxury of choosing what foods we like to eat; most of the world’s societies do not have this luxury. Vegetarians are growing in number, but the vast majority of people rely on meat to survive. To ask if it would be morally wrong to eat animals, in effect, would be asking is it morally wrong to eat. There are many families in my area, who live in very rural locations, who depend on venison for example.

For me, I would never support legislation based on issues of morality. A standard needs to be established, and this is difficult when speaking of issues concerning morals. For example, murder is a crime, a victim is involved, and damages can be seen. Is murder morally wrong? This can not be measured. The courts can only acknowledge what can be seen and proved and then punish accordingly, it is not the courts responsibility to decide what is, or what is not morally wrong.
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Thank you for your answer, and I realize that our entire economy would collapse if everyone stopped eating meat (cattle ranches, chicken farms, most restaurants, food stores).

However, your question as to whether murder is morally wrong, I think most people would say yes except in self defense. It is one of the Ten Commandments. In the book, Primates and Philosophers, the author gives examples of what most people would do in certain trolley situations, where a trolley on a track will kill five people unless someone intervenes by pushing a person onto the track to stop the train or by switching the track with a lever (will still kill one person). They are very unsettling situations, and even though most people said they would not push one person in front of a train to save five people, MRI's of the brain show this to be the rational choice. (I personally could never do it).

So I guess you are right when you infer that morality means different things to different people.
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Hello Suzanne:

Oh please don't get me wrong. I do believe that murder is morally wrong, I used it as an example as far as legislature. You are so right, morality does mean different things to different people. Hense, it can not be measured and examined, therefore it can not be used soley as a base to create law.

With this said, crimes commited with the motivation of hate, and abuse commited against animals are examples of your statement of evolving morally, and the courts are now recognizing these crimes and handing down punishments. Also, laws concerning discrimination have dramatically changed over the years. But again, punishments are given for the act itself, not the morality of the act. Michael Vick is a good example, some people thought he got off easy, others believed he should not have been punished at all. The courts measuring stick will never be long enough to encompass everyone's sense of morality.

I am sorry for the missunderstanding.
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However, as you imply, if 'nature' demands blood sacrifice, then it is not a very appealing moral teacher. It opens the question whether and how Christianity is a more evolved moral system than the beliefs it conquered. Wednesday claims at one point that our indifference to road safety is evidence of our continued instinctive blood lust, and he could say the same thing about the accumulation of weapons of mass destruction.
I found this to be an interesting perspective on natures requirement for blood sacrifice. The way I see the situation is not so much as nature REQUIRES a blood sacrifice, but that we are all not so important in the big scheme of things and therefore are not sacred as people. Things die, the chain of life requires that things die and feed other things. As the discussion evolved into veganism and not eating animals, it occurs to me that this is simply a mindset that we can have in a day and age where we no longer hunt our own food or scrap for survival. I am 100% sure that all the vegans in the world would instantly become ominvores again if faced with a lifestyle in which they had to scrounge food to survive and truly understood the sacrifice that the animal was making for their own survival. The fact that someone can feel that it is inhumane for people to work at a slaughterhouse just shows how disconnected we are to our food and the carnage that is inherent in our ability to eat mcdonalds or any other meal really. This nicely fits in with the themes in American Gods, our disconnection as people from nature, which nutures us! how can we not realize the natural order of things and shun the food chain or disregard the bosom of the earth that feeds us? Not to get off track too much, one of my favorite poems by Wordsworth really hits home with me and this book, this discussion and the world at large. I will share it here just for a moment of introspection.

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon,
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
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I just finished the first chapter of the book, which mainly seems to be setting the stage for what's to come. Some strange stuff is happening, and from everyone's comments it sounds like things will get a lot weirder. Gaiman's writing style is appealing and I'm curious to see where things are headed.
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