Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:08 pm





Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 41 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Fiction Book Suggestions for NEXT official discussion 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5823
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2283
Thanked: 2211 times in 1671 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
MaryLupin wrote:
I think you might be right about the mythological mixture. I tend to like authors that treat our mythological ideas as fertile ground for exploring what it means to live in our world.

Have you read Someplace to be Flying by Charles de Lint? It is one of my favourite fantasy books.

http://www.amazon.ca/Someplace-be-Flying-Charles-Lint/dp/076530757X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241662602&sr=8-1
Thanks Mary, a review of Someplace to be Flying says the characters "explore the existence of the mythical "animal people" and discover the hidden world that lurks just outside their normal perceptions. ... combines elements of magical realism with multicultural myths to illuminate the lives of his characters - the misfits and orphans of the modern world. De Lint's elegant prose and effective storytelling continue to transform the mundane into the magical at every turn."

This sense of a 'hidden world' is something I find very interesting. It also appears in Castaneda's work, and also in Heidegger's idea of nothing.



Wed May 06, 2009 11:09 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2517
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 557
Thanked: 448 times in 357 posts
Gender: Female

Post Fiction recomendation
Hello Chris:

Dry your tears, we have feedback coming in!

:clap:


Suzanne



Thu May 07, 2009 5:47 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Junior

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Location: Vancouver, BC
Thanks: 4
Thanked: 6 times in 6 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Robert Tulip wrote:
This sense of a 'hidden world' is something I find very interesting. It also appears in Castaneda's work, and also in Heidegger's idea of nothing.


I remember reading Castenada with mixed feelings. I have lived all my life with traditions a bit like he is trying to describe, with curendaras and medicine people and seers. So I have a hard time seeing characters like that written about without realizing their human side - the one where they drink too much, or have temper tantrums when they think someone has been messing with their stuff, or do the lowered-eyebrow stare to try and get you to do what they want - It reminds of the line from the poem "The Lady's Dressing Room" "Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!" Still, I did like the idea of jumping off a cliff and not being a human pancake at the end of the trip.

And Heidegger! My favorite line from that talk at Freiburg - "We assert that the nothing is more original than the “not” and negation." So nothing has the same ontological status as being. Cool move. And of course, metaphysics is necessary to explore the workings of this ontological reality; our existence is predicated on the abyss. I have to say I can empathize with Carnap, although I don't think (by any means) that Heidegger was a fool.


_________________
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.


Thu May 07, 2009 7:46 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5823
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2283
Thanked: 2211 times in 1671 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
MaryLupin wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
This sense of a 'hidden world' is something I find very interesting. It also appears in Castaneda's work, and also in Heidegger's idea of nothing.
I remember reading Castenada with mixed feelings. I have lived all my life with traditions a bit like he is trying to describe, with curendaras and medicine people and seers. So I have a hard time seeing characters like that written about without realizing their human side - the one where they drink too much, or have temper tantrums when they think someone has been messing with their stuff, or do the lowered-eyebrow stare to try and get you to do what they want - It reminds of the line from the poem "The Lady's Dressing Room" "Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!" Still, I did like the idea of jumping off a cliff and not being a human pancake at the end of the trip.
Like Someplace to be Flying, Carlos opens a hidden reality. The Yacqui ontology of the tonal and the nagual maps to Heidegger’s distinction of being and nothing.
Quote:
And Heidegger! My favorite line from that talk at Freiburg - "We assert that the nothing is more original than the “not” and negation." So nothing has the same ontological status as being. Cool move. And of course, metaphysics is necessary to explore the workings of this ontological reality; our existence is predicated on the abyss. I have to say I can empathize with Carnap, although I don't think (by any means) that Heidegger was a fool.
Carnap said there is no meaning outside science, rejecting Heidegger’s openness to existential anxiety. For Heidegger, openness to anxiety is the source of care, anticipating the future through the context of concern arising from being with others. It almost suggests an evolutionary sense of mutual aid, as discussed by de Waal from Kropotkin.

The abyss for Heidegger is a problematic thing – almost the terror of the unknown. Carnap’s assertion that human rationality can stare down the abyss of being has a certain arrogance, claiming a level of understanding for empirical science that it does not really possess. These positions seem to me to illustrate the conflict between linear and cyclic theories of time. Carnap interprets time as linear progress, while Heidegger sees cyclic return. Heidegger’s effort to enframe the cosmos in the fourfold of earth and sky, man and gods indicates his sympathy to an older cyclic method of thought, attuned to the natural rhythms and harmonies of the universe.



Thu May 07, 2009 8:51 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Junior

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Location: Vancouver, BC
Thanks: 4
Thanked: 6 times in 6 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Robert Tulip wrote:
Like Someplace to be Flying, Carlos opens a hidden reality. The Yacqui ontology of the tonal and the nagual maps to Heidegger’s distinction of being and nothing.


I am not sure I would say they open hidden realities as much as either invent them or more exactly, expose metaphorical connections that exist unconsciously and with the aid of the human narrative imagination and our tendency toward projection and anthropomorphization, act as if we have opened a previously hidden reality. Regardless, though, it is one hell of a fun ride.

Robert Tulip wrote:
Carnap said there is no meaning outside science, rejecting Heidegger’s openness to existential anxiety.


Ceasar is a prime number: Carnap's argument with Heidegger was that he used language in ways that were literally meaningless. That is the sentence "Ceasar is a prime number" is neither true nor false; it is meaningless. Carnap argues that Heidegger's logic was based on a number of statements like this and so his argument is linguistically meaningless. I don't think that is the same thing as saying there is no meaning outside science. However, while I agree that many of Heidegger's statements in that particular lecture are meaningless in this way, they are meaningful if read like one reads poetry. I can create a whole series of images based on the sentence "Ceasar is a prime number" that create new ways of perceiving the all the things that are metaphorically connected to "ceasar" and "prime number" in my head. So I can gather meaning from the sentence even though it is also meaningless. This points to another problem with language and with Heidegger's use of it that Carnap points out...that the same apparent word can carry very different meanings. Like Being. The fact that we can manipulate it to be a noun like Tree and make the connection that maybe Being and Tree are linked, and get a new way of perceiving the world from that, doesn't make Being existant, nor even if it is existant, does it make it a noun-like entity like a Tree.

And I think you can have openness to existential anxiety without making category mistakes "real" even if those very mistakes are meaning producers.

Having said that, I do think that Carnap does not go far enough in trying to understand what Heidegger is trying to do.

Robert Tulip wrote:
For Heidegger, openness to anxiety is the source of care, anticipating the future through the context of concern arising from being with others. It almost suggests an evolutionary sense of mutual aid, as discussed by de Waal from Kropotkin.


I agree about this as a possible sorce of care (sorge). And I agree that there is an evolutionary tale to be told here.

Robert Tulip wrote:
The abyss for Heidegger is a problematic thing – almost the terror of the unknown. Carnap’s assertion that human rationality can stare down the abyss of being has a certain arrogance, claiming a level of understanding for empirical science that it does not really possess. These positions seem to me to illustrate the conflict between linear and cyclic theories of time. Carnap interprets time as linear progress, while Heidegger sees cyclic return. Heidegger’s effort to enframe the cosmos in the fourfold of earth and sky, man and gods indicates his sympathy to an older cyclic method of thought, attuned to the natural rhythms and harmonies of the universe.


I'm not sure what I think about this terror of the abyss. I have written stuff on other writers who contemplate the abyss with existential terror. I have a hard time understanding it. I'm thinking specifically of Simone Weil at the moment. I think that with Weil, the fact that she read the abyss as "real" - that is, as a noun-like entity - was part of the source of her terror. By constituting it that way, the nothing becomes (like Heidegger says) a counter-part of being. Just as the devil is a counterpart of the god. Of course the human body responds to that with terror. But if one doesn't constitute it that way, if the abyss is more like the space between particulate matter, then the body doesn't respond the same way, fear is not generated, but rather a kind of awe, and so looking at the abyss becomes something profound but not impossible to sustain.

For me, this is part of what sorge is - how we constitute our attachment to the things in themselves. It matters what stories we tell to explain the world because they constrain how we experience our lives. So we get a choice - the abyss or the space between (and myriad other possibilities.) I think both Carnap and Heidegger missed the choice-bit of experiential meaning, although Heidegger did have lots to say about doingness.


_________________
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.


Thu May 07, 2009 10:58 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 16170
Location: Florida
Thanks: 3493
Thanked: 1326 times in 1045 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Does anyone want to summarize this thread and share the book titles suggested? We can do a poll whenever we've got enough suggestions and feedback. :smile:



Fri May 08, 2009 1:21 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2517
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 557
Thanked: 448 times in 357 posts
Gender: Female

Post 
Chris:

To date, here are the suggestios:

"House Keeping", Marilynne Robinson

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/produc ... 188/ref=dp _proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
Maybe should be taken off, a reliable source poo-pooed it.

"PostCards", Annie Proulx

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/produc ... 012/ref=dp _proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
No interest shown except for nomanator


"Oryx and Crake", Margaret Atwood

http://www.amazon.ca/Oryx-Crake-Novel-M ... 0429351/re f=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241547991&sr=8-8
some interest shown

"The Story of O", Anne Desclos,
Just kidding


"American Gods", Neil Gaiman

http://www.amazon.ca/American-Gods-Mm-N ... 035/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241575959&sr=8-1
Great interest shown

"The Road", Cormack McCarthy

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Cormac-McCar ... =sr_1_2?ie =UTF8&s=books&qid=1241658146&sr=1-2


"I am Charlott Simons", Tom Wolfe

http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Charlotte-Si ... 4442/ref=p d_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241561645&sr=8-1

Suzanne



Fri May 08, 2009 8:50 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Junior

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 324
Location: Vancouver, BC
Thanks: 4
Thanked: 6 times in 6 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Yea Suzanne!

So I am throwing my 3 votes behind American Gods.


_________________
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.


Fri May 08, 2009 10:20 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 16170
Location: Florida
Thanks: 3493
Thanked: 1326 times in 1045 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Do you all want to have a poll or just go with American Gods for June and July 2009? I ask this because polls are only effective if plenty of people participate. If we're doing the next fiction book in June and July (and possible also August) we might want to select it quickly so that I can advertise it right away. Not all of our books have been selected via polls. We've picked plenty with just a good discussion, such as this.

Comments would be appreciated. :smile:



Fri May 08, 2009 5:52 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2517
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 557
Thanked: 448 times in 357 posts
Gender: Female

Post fiction poll
Chris:

"American Gods" received the most feedback, and positive comments from the list of sugestions. I feel "American Gods" will appeal to a wide range of readers, maybe even some who do not typically read or discuss fiction. The comments already made about the book are interesting to read. I believe "American Gods" will truly make for a great discusion. I whole heartedly give my three votes to it.

"Oryx and Crake" recieved some positive feedback, but I don't think it would appeal to as many members. I would be content with "American Gods" being named, but people do like to vote, and feel part of the process, but this process has been dragging.

Maybe give it until after the weekend, see if the nominations generate feedback. I do agree, a verdict needs to come in soon to be ready for a discussion starting in just a few weeks.

Suzanne



Fri May 08, 2009 8:02 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 16170
Location: Florida
Thanks: 3493
Thanked: 1326 times in 1045 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
I'll put American Gods up for May, June and July as opposed to just June & July. There is a full 20 days remaining in this month and I see no reason to not open the new forum up right away. :smile:



Sun May 10, 2009 12:45 pm
Profile Email WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 41 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank