• In total there are 14 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 12 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

OFFICIAL POLL: June & July 2009 Non-Fiction

Collaborate in choosing our next NON-FICTION book for group discussion within this forum. A minimum of 5 posts is necessary to participate here!
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17019
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3511 times
Been thanked: 1309 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Unread post

Thanks for the link, Saffron. I'm listening to Temple Grandin right now. :smile:

So, are you going to vote early in this poll? Or were you just popping your head in to say hello? :hmm:
User avatar
Saffron

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I can has reading?
Posts: 2954
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:37 pm
15
Location: Randolph, VT
Has thanked: 474 times
Been thanked: 399 times
United States of America

Unread post

I am still thinking about how to vote - at least one vote will got to the Temple Grandin book.
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17019
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3511 times
Been thanked: 1309 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Unread post

Ahhhh we have a thinker in the community. :shock:
User avatar
MaryLupin

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
Junior
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm
15
Location: Vancouver, BC
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Unread post

I am going to put my 3 votes toward de Waal’s book Good Natured.

Here’s the reason: All three books seem to me to address a similar issue but they do it in different ways. The books work toward breaking the hold the notion of human “special creation” has on the way we think about the world and the way in which (more importantly) we act in the world. The idea that humans were specially created has allowed us to think of ourselves as having a part of ourselves (often thought of as eternal) that is fundamentally distinct from the earth and its limits. We have used the idea of our special status as beings with “souls” to justify some pretty awful things. Temple Grandin’s book addresses those behaviors (amongst other things) and provides us ways to act differently.

The legacy of the idea of “special creation” can be seen in many parts of our human history. Slavery, for example, is always accompanied by some sort of special creation story to explain why the slavers are entitled to (and often obligated to) provide for the needs of what they perceive as an infantile or otherwise needy group of people. US history gives plenty of examples: the early idea that African slaves had no souls, for example. Telling ourselves these stories about why we are more important than, better than, etc. someone else enables the kinds of behaviours that Grandin works to stop when it comes to domesticated animals. So I see the value of the book.

However, I think what needs to happen is that we need to examine something closer to the root of the problem than Grandin’s book seems to address. This is why I had suggested Descartes’ Error and Good Natured. I have just ordered both books since, even if we decide to go with Grandin’s book (which I will also buy), I want to have a pretty close look at the evidence for the origins of our moral capacity (something often touted as proof of our “special” origin.) I have gone with Good Natured instead of Descartes’ Error because 1) other booktalk members have expressed an interest in reading it and 2) that seems to me to provide some anecdotal evidence that Good Natured might be more accessible than Descartes’ Error because Good Natured does talk about animal behaviour and Descartes’ Error is a more strictly philosophical argument.

So I think all three books address the same basic idea – that humans need to unlearn our “place” and get real about what and who we are with respect to the planetary system that sustains our being. In addition, all three books suggest that one way to do that is to really pay attention to how we humans as well as other species actually behave without preconceived ideas of our special status. I just think that directly addressing the belief system that supports the idea of our specialness is, potentially, a more productive way to do that.
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
User avatar
Grim

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Brilliant
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:59 pm
15
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Unread post

Question: why are we voting on Good Natured when the author has written a much newer and "expanded" version about the same topic????

http://www.amazon.com/Primates-Philosop ... n_edpp_url

Mary "Descartes’ Error is a more strictly philosophical argument."

Well it's really more of a neurological answer to a philosophical mistake that is already pretty much recognized as such.

:book:
Last edited by Grim on Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17019
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3511 times
Been thanked: 1309 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Unread post

Mary,

Wow, that was a fantastic explanation for why you're voting the way you're voting. Thank you so much for taking the time to illuminate the common theme all three choices seem to share. Selecting our official book selections would be so much easier if everyone put as much effort and thought into presenting the rationale for their choices as you just have.

I couldn't agree with you more in that Temple Grandin's book isn't necessarily addressing the core problem, and de Waal’s book Good Natured might be. But I still think Temple Grandin's book could potentially do the planet more good, in the short term, than de Waal's more in depth and analytical approach.

Temple Grandin is biting off a big bite, but it is one I think we can chew. De Waal might be correct in his assessment, but he might be biting off far more than we could possibly chew. How much of a change can we expect this one book to make? That sounds horrible I suppose. We're supposed to read for educational purposes around here, but when I learned about Grandin and her struggles to clean up the animal killing facilities I couldn't help but to breathe a big sigh of relief and say, "Well, it's about damn time someone cared."

Animals are suffering horribly today. I'm not very confident that humanity is going to read de Waal's book and suddenly see the light and change it's brutish ways. Grandin provides real tangible methods for immediately mitigating the pain and suffering and torment of millions of animals. Grandin consults with slaughterhouses and animal processing facilities and teaches them ways to treat the animals more humanely. (Thanks for that recorded interview, Saffron)

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that there are underlying and core issues that have to be addressed if we're ever going to become a more humane species, but in my opinion we need to quickly put a stop to the horrific conditions in slaughterhouses, puppy mills, chicken farms, etc. before we try to tackle the epic task of making humans more loving, kind and compassionate and less selfish, uncaring and anthropocentric.

But all three books have their lessons. I'm just an animal lover and feel strongly about that particular cause.
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17019
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3511 times
Been thanked: 1309 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Unread post

Grim,

We have de Waal's book in the poll because this is the book that was suggested originally. The suggestion thread was open from February 20th through April 18th. This is 2 months of me asking people to provide feedback on all of the suggestions. Nobody said anything negative about de Waal's book. In fact several people commented that it looked like a good choice. So it's on the poll because that's how our system works.

I suggest in future book suggestion threads you help me encourage people to look at all of the suggestions made by members and provide some feedback. Feedback is the most important element of our book selection process. :smile:
User avatar
Saffron

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I can has reading?
Posts: 2954
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:37 pm
15
Location: Randolph, VT
Has thanked: 474 times
Been thanked: 399 times
United States of America

Unread post

Grim wrote:Question: why are we voting on Good Natured when the author has written a much newer and "expanded" version about the same topic????

http://www.amazon.com/Primates-Philosop ... n_edpp_url
Because no one suggested it! I think that is why Chris pleads with us to make comments during the suggestion period.
User avatar
Suzanne

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Book General
Posts: 2513
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:51 pm
14
Location: New Jersey
Has thanked: 518 times
Been thanked: 399 times

Animal lover

Unread post

Hello Chris:

I am impressed with your love of strays, and it is refreshing to hear that you act upon this love, with the leashes, and cat food. Not many stray cats, or dogs in my neighborhood, but, we have had many ducks and turtles, a few box, and even a snapper, find their way into my back yard. I think animals may have an instinct, maybe they know whose backyard is safe. My son and I have learned much on how to properly place the turtles back into their natural habitat, we call them "pondies". My favs are the bats and the snakes. The most responsibe thing a parent can say is, "no we can not keep it as a pet". I know I am not able to vote but I do appreciate the priviledge of reading the nominees (I thought I would need at least 2,500 posts, Whew!). I am going to check out book 2, I think my children would benifit from it. Oh, if you see a box turtle crossing the road, safely see it to the other side, it knows where it's going. I'm looking forward to reading which ever one is picked, and I have to say how relieved I am that "Marley and Me" was not included.

Suzanne
User avatar
MaryLupin

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
Junior
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm
15
Location: Vancouver, BC
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Unread post

Chris OConnor wrote:I'm not very confident that humanity is going to read de Waal's book and suddenly see the light and change it's brutish ways. Grandin provides real tangible methods...in my opinion we need to quickly put a stop to the horrific conditions...before we try to tackle the epic task of making humans more loving, kind and compassionate and less selfish, uncaring and anthropocentric...
I think you are right that reading any one book is not going to do anything to change the basic nature of human beings. We aren't really built to learn that way. Our learning comes best through intense emotional experience. So for example, visiting an abattoir as a teen and watching Soylent Green probably had much more effect on my current vegetarianism than reading Diet for a Small Planet or any other book. Emotions are deeply embedded in all our "rational" decisions.

But that's the point. Human's are so accustomed to thinking of ourselves as a rational species and accustomed to thinking of emotions and reason as separate functions, but they aren't. Nothing is going to change the fact that humans cover emotionally-based decisions with a thin veneer of reasonable explanation. All we can really do is become as aware as we can of the real reason we behave as we do and then try to act based on how that makes us feel about what we do - what we eat. So, using myself as an example, grilling steak still smells really good to me but if I imagine trying to actually put a piece in my mouth - yuch - I get this really nasty emotional feed back. What's true is that the yuch factor probably has much more to do with my "decision" not to eat that piece of meat at that moment than the education I get when I read books about the environmental effect of the livestock industry.

So I don't think humans will quickly put a stop to what you rightfully call the horrific conditions animals suffer - especially ones that are food to us. I mean we won't even put a stop to the really horrible conditions many of our children suffer and we have far more emotional attachment to other humans than we do (typically) to even the closest of our animal compatriots. I mean we are wired to respond to human faces in a way that makes us feel an echo of what they feel. That's why slavers need the rationalizations.

And I doubt most people in the world will ever read de Waal, Grandin or Damasio for that matter. :laugh:

Most people are quite sure their emotional response to things as they are ("vegetarians are trying to undermine the American way" is something I've heard more than once) is sensible - rational. It would never occur to them to question the links between how they feel, how they reason and how they act in the world. So, no, things aren't going to change any time soon. I mean look at how long it took the US to get it that dark skin doesn't make someone lesser.

Anyway, that's why I read...to question what I think, what I feel and how I act. I can't be anything other than human, but I can at least become aware of the limits of that state.
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
Locked

Return to “What non-fiction book should we read and discuss next?”