Penelope:

The Taliban and Al Queda are not behaving the way they do because of their religion. It is just the exercise of power, with religion being used as an excuse to unite the bullies.

Well said penelope. I do not believe that religion and God are the reason for these atrocities.

Well, if this is the case isn't it time for the civilized world to unite and wipe out the Taliban and Al Queda?

Perhaps we have not evolved very much at all. Isn't this the type of statement that could be found in any point in history. They are the bad people, we are the good, let's wipe them out and our world will be a better place.

Thanks for the clarification. I think we understand each other fairly well.

I don't understand how you or anyone can not blame religion for the acts of the Taliban, however, so I'm not sure how to respond at this point. They are following the instructions of their holy book and to me this means their religion is to blame. Well, their stupidity in accepting that religion is to blame.

Perhaps we have not evolved very much at all. Isn't this the type of statement that could be found in any point in history. They are the bad people, we are the good, let's wipe them out and our world will be a better place.

So you're arguing that nobody is really "bad" or "evil" or deserves to be stopped. This is the argument of cultural relativism and I don't buy it. When the Taliban beats a women for exposing her face in public something needs to be done about it. I'm not content with just sitting back and saying, "Oh, well this is their tradition and we need to be tolerant of traditions."

Their tradition is sick and twisted and evil. What if someone had a tradition of burning to death all women when they hit the age of, oh, let's say 45. Hey, it's their tradition and who are we to judge, right?

By using an extreme example I am showing you that we are more in agreement than you may realize. We both believe that at some point helping your neighbor is justified. We just disagree about the exact point.

It amazes me how anyone can not blame religion and religious belief for the actions of the Taliban. This level of tolerance is part of the problem. Have you ever read about Sharia Law? Please, seriously read about Islamic Law and then tell me religion isn't to blame.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/ ... ia_is.html

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/38436

Chris quote:

I don't understand how you or anyone can not blame religion for the acts of the Taliban, however, so I'm not sure how to respond at this point. They are following the instructions of their holy book and to me this means their religion is to blame. Well, their stupidity in accepting that religion is to blame.

No, Chris, they are not following the instructions of their holy book. Just as the Christians....pick out the the convenient instructions from their holy book... when and where it suits them. The Bible is full of contradictions anyway.

I am thinking of the Simon and Garfunkel song....'I man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest...'

I still insist that it is about the Ego....about 'power'.....

But...yes...you are right....we can't let them just get on with it......because they are hiding behind.....what they call their religion.

And I bloody well understand what you hold against this kind of religiousity...

There is an absolute need for an atheistic viewpoint.....but I also think that there is a need to accept a balancing point of view......that is why I want to be here......putting in my feeble input.......

When the time comes that humans want to overthrow what is, after all, just the human interpretation of religion......mixed up with power, and ego, and sentiment and false emotion.....then.....just maybe.....religion will be seen as the balancing of our rationality.......as an essential element for a balanced psyche. That's what it is to me anyway.

Simon and Garfunkel song....'a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest...

thanks penelope, I think there is great wisdom in the lyrics of popular music. like it or not, we live subjective (relativistic) lives that we cannot escape .. we were born this way and we will die this way, unless of course, some freaky evolutionary event occurs. and I don't think anyone was arguing for tolerance of violence or atrocity in the name of religion or culture.

No, Chris, they are not following the instructions of their holy book.

Yes, Penelope, they most certainly are following the instructions of their holy book. You can pretend that it's all one big misinterpretation, but if you've read the Quran you wouldn't make such a statement. It is Christians that ignore the nasty verses and pretend as if they don't exist. And in most cases Christians haven't even read their own Bible. MOST Christians I talk to don't know a thing about the Bible. So how can they be expected to comment intelligently on the Quran? They can't. Just like with their own faith they are ignorant of other peoples faiths. They parrot back little sentences they've hear uttered on TV or by their religious leaders.

I strongly suggest people read both the Bible and the Quran because they are horrendously evil. Please, explain to me what I am reading wrong about these verses...

King James Bible

Exodus 12:29

29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Numbers 11:33

33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

Exodus 32:27-29

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

Numbers 15:32-36

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

---

So we're to ignore the above verses just because elsewhere in the Bible it says some warm and fuzzy stuff? Please. I'm too intelligent for that. I think you are too.

Sure, most of the nastiness is in the Old Testament, but isn't it the same God? Sure it is. So I'm not going to turn a blind eye towards God endorsing killing your own sons and daughters, keeping and beating slaves, or murdering those that work on the Sabbath.

I am not going to copy and paste the evil in the Quran because it won't be read or considered. It will be rejected as nonsense and misinterpretation no matter how well I cite the verses.

Chris OConnor wrote:First of all I don't think the tendency to not kill each other as often is a matter of spiritual evolution, and I venture to say Christopher Hitchens would agree with me. Religion poisons everything, as the author repeats over and over, and some of us consider even the use of the term "spirituality" to be an injection of irrationality into the mix unnecessarily. Spirituality, in my opinion, is a completely meaningless term, provided that "spirits" don't exist, and this is where Hitchens is going with his thesis. There is no reason to believe spirits exist, spirituality matters, or that religion does anything other than poison humanity. Some of you will argue about the term spirituality as it has become rather cool to think of ourselves as spiritual even when not religious. I personally don't use the word because it embarrasses me to even remotely be associated with religion or religious beliefs.

Hi Chris, this is a great post regarding the dangers of false belief. However, it seems to me that you (and Hitchens) invalidly infer from such arguments that true belief is impossible. Generally, religious practice is primarily a validation of custom, and is only partly informed by wisdom literature. You cannot debunk the wisdom literature by showing the degeneracy of the custom. The point of the wisdom literature, and this holds strongly for the kernel of the Bible, is that popular religion is degenerate and needs to evolve to understand a higher truth. For example the Old Testament prophet Amos condemned religious sacrifice and said true religion was primarily about achieving economic justice. We don’t need to postulate an imaginary supernatural entity to say that Amos was inspired by a spirit of love. Equally, the Gospel Sermon on the Mount focuses on mercy as a divine quality. These texts are about defining a goal for human evolution.

"There is evidence that we are progressing spiritually" is meaningless to me. Do you mean that there is evidence that our belief in imaginary things is causing an effect? Ok, I'll give you this. But I'd say the effect caused is far more dangerous, negative and deadly than helpful or positive. You and I both happen to live in countries where religion isn't regularly leading to the slaughter of innocents. But this is not the norm in the world and you should not forget it.

The opposition to capital punishment is not due to “belief in imaginary things” but to belief in the inherent dignity of the human individual. This concept of ‘dignity’ might be seen as imaginary in some quarters, but many would argue it has a strong empirical basis. Europe is more spiritually evolved than Pakistan precisely because of Europe’s greater respect for human rights. The theory of rights has a deeply spiritual origin, including from the Ten Commandments which Hitchens mocks so derisively. A distinction needs to be drawn here between true and false spirituality, with the former supporting evolution towards a good and enlightened world and the latter presenting a twisted evil path based on mass delusion. You can’t use the existence of spiritual delusion to infer that spiritual enlightenment is impossible.

Who is "we?" Who attempts to reach consensus? Does the Taliban or Al Queda seek consensus? Or do they slaughter the opposition? Oh, you mean people in the civilized world, right? Well, if this is the case isn't it time for the civilized world to unite and wipe out the Taliban and Al Queda?

Chris, the question here is one of priorities and strategy. Yes, the civilized world should unite to wipe out the Taliban and Al Queda, but in a place like Afghanistan where false belief is so deeply entrenched military action is rather like punching a bucket of water, which goes back to its previous state as soon as your fist is out. Military action can contain extremism, but to exterminate it requires action on winning hearts and minds. This is slow and difficult, and requires consensus on strategy. Economic development is a major starting point, as religious delusion only prospers where people haven’t got better things to do. Your atheist argument that spirituality is meaningless has strong shock value as an enlightened perspective and a way to base policies on evidence, but it is so far from where the mass of the population are now that it does not really help in practical reform. If we want spiritual evolution from a current view that terrorism and cruelty are okay towards a view that they are not okay, then people need to be presented with arguments which provide a path of reform from their current situation. For example, it is okay to believe in Allah or God as a supreme being as long as we work through in a logical way how this belief is compatible with scientific knowledge.

Chris:

I have read the Bible. I do know a lot of what it says......I don't know the Koran....because that is derived from Judaic scripture, just like the Bible, and, frankly, I can't be bothered. Now why can't I be bothered?

Because, it is not right to uphold a Book, and call it holy. And blindly do whatever it says....... But since the Bible is such an influencial book, and I am grateful to those people in the past, like Myles Coverdale, who in 1534, wrote out the whole Bible in English, by hand. So that we could read it....

I have seen the actual book in the British Library.......and being an emotional female.....was extraordinarily moved by the sight of it.

Because, in those days, most people couldn't read, they took their knowledge from the clergy....they went to Church and 'heard' the teachings. They couldn't read for themselves what it 'really' said.

Now, we can, and when we rebel against it.....and the clergy who have perpetuated the myths......we think that we are rebelling against God and religion. But religion is not to be had from a book, however holy people 'say' it is. Or whatever fancy 'frocks' the clergy wear. That man, whose name is not to be mentioned on here, told us that the Kingdom of Heaven was within us, not in a book.

So, here I am picking out bits.......that some man said, 2000 years ago and that have echoed through the ages. And just ring true......

Of course I am influenced by the Bible.....It has informed a lot of my thinking as I have gone through my life. It is just an collection of writings bound together somewhat arbitrarily......and some of it attributes horrible things to what they call God. Some of it, contains wisdom but it depends where you look. But it is not holy...it is not God....it is just a book, or rather a collection of books.

It is Judaic teaching, history, and poetry.......and myths. Taking a birds eye view....I have become very suspicious of Jewish teachings......Jewish teaching is the basis of Christianity and Islam.....all three are from the same base and all three are unfortunately influencial in current major world events.

But just as I don't blame or dislike the Jews.....neither will I blame 'religion' for all the troubles in the world. Religion is not a book, or a set of rules.