There is plenty of evidence, in the Bible and elsewhere to show that they believed in reincarnation.

This is news to me and I'd be interested in knowing where you find references to reincarnation in the Bible. I'm not challenging you because I'm sure not a Bible scholar. Let me know where to look for this please.

I find the toast avatar pretty funny, but I can see how it might offend. We have another member with what I consider an absolutely hilarious avatar. His shows a fat kid and the words say, "Fat kids make baby Jesus laugh." I almost peed my pants when I saw that one. It is so politically incorrect and shocking that it cracked me up. But that is just my sense of humor.

A few weeks ago I was in a cell phone store and there was a customer sitting at the counter wearing a T-Shirt that said the following on the back:

"Excuse me, but are those my balls on your face?"

I died laughing! You might have turned around feeling embarrassed....maybe not. But stuff like this is just friggin hilarious to me.

There is a web site where you can order prank bumper stickers to put on your friends/enemies cars. My favorite is:

"Available for all-male gang bangs"

Can you imagine how embarrassing that would be for someone to have on the back of their car without knowing?

OK Chris - I will tell you where to look for the reincarnation reference....and it certainly isn't vague.

It is where the 'people' say, 'some say that that John the Baptist was Elijah the prophet returned to earth.

And Jesus - doesn't tell then off...he just says... for so he is.

Look at Matthew Chapter 17 -Vs 11-13 - it's not the one I wanted but it will do.

I am not quoting this to convince you of anything other than that reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible;....there are other references but I can't find my concordance!!! Sorry, I will try to find more and post the references up if you are interested.

Mr. Pessimistic wrote:

Penelope wrote: I am not going back to believing the Christian doctrine of salvation - although Salvation doesn't mean - Save - in means - Heal -Salve - just means to heal (Doesn't it Robert?).

The really interesting thing to me in Harrison's book is how he engages with what to me is a silly idea, that being saved means going to heaven. I have always understood salvation as the transformation of our planet, so the medieval idea of going to heaven after you die strikes me as a simply absurd, unscientific and dangerous belief system. It is like a tumourous relic in human culture. The concept of salvation as transformation is aligned with the teachings of Jesus Christ and with science, whereas the Christian church has got it wrong big time with its concept of heaven.

My daughter Diana just starred as one of the swindling tailors in a production of The Emperor's New Clothes. I did think it ironic that the show was on while Pope Benedict was in Australia with all the cardinals solemnly nodding their heads about their catechism. No one likes to look a fool.

But I still find it crass of Mr. P to have that piece of toast....for his avatar. Because some people would be offended. Expecially since Mr. P knows that it is so easy to mock this sort of faith. He knows they are not going to declare Jihad on him..... Anyway, it is not helpful IMO.

Well, this is not the first time you have disagreed with my avatar. I will not apologize for it, because what offends me most is that these pieces of toast, when people really think they see them, sell for thousands on ebay. THAT is what is offensive, if you do not see that then maybe you have the issues. You seem to have a very thin skin. I am not looking to please people, sorry. I just do what I think is funny and I cannot understand why it would offend any rational person. And you think I pick easy targets? Where is that Muhammad...he can go scratch my arse too!! Bring it on losers. ALthough to make it apples to apples, I would have to challenge Allah instead no? Mr. P.

Penelope, I am offended by claims that such imagined resemblances have deep theological meaning. Believers in miracles deserve mockery, tempered by due sensitivity to the feelings of the ignorant. The only real miracles are delivered by science, or at least are compatible with science. The perception of Christianity as a magic cult, promoted by various toast worshippers, interferes with serious scientific analysis of the merits of the Christian message. Perhaps the Pope will buy the blessed sacrament of the toast on Ebay and keep it in a suitable eternal container for veneration and adoration as the body of Christ. They could treat it with McPreservatives to stop it going mouldy. As they said in the reformation, Hoc Est Corpus = Hocus Pocus.

Robert Tulip:- On this forum we are dealing with ordinary human beings a lot of the time. Not the Pope and Cardinals. I think they seldom log on to this Website.

But my heart breaks...really...when young people log on....looking for a bit of reassurance....that it is OK to question.

If you are brought up in a Fundamentalist Household.....in a Fundamentalist town in America.....and you are taught
that it is the 'Devil' tempting you to question. Which is what they are taught. It is very frightening indeed and needs very gentle and careful handling. AND if I may say so, a lot a prayer and guidance as to how to help.

We might not be much help.....but the opportunity is here. And a little help is better than no help at all.

With my philosophy - If it gets serious - You are on the wrong track!!!

I must end on a lighter note:-

Chris: English Bumper Sticker: Seen on a lorry (truck) on our motorway.

'Hung Like a Bull - Ask Driver for Details'

Also:-

On a tanker which emptied Septic Tanks (Lavatories/Toilets)

'A1 Septic Tank Specialists - Number One for Your Number Twos'.

(I am wondering if some of this might be lost in translation! )

Penelope wrote:Robert Tulip:- On this forum we are dealing with ordinary human beings a lot of the time. Not the Pope and Cardinals. I think they seldom log on to this Website. But my heart breaks...really...when young people log on....looking for a bit of reassurance....that it is OK to question.If you are brought up in a Fundamentalist Household.....in a Fundamentalist town in America.....and you are taught that it is the 'Devil' tempting you to question. Which is what they are taught. It is very frightening indeed and needs very gentle and careful handling. AND if I may say so, a lot a prayer and guidance as to how to help. We might not be much help.....but the opportunity is here. And a little help is better than no help at all.

Penelope, these are valid comments about the sensitivity of discussion about religion, but believing that Jesus is in a piece of toast is in a direct continuum with Roman Catholic belief that miracles are needed for canonisation and that Jesus was born from a virgin. Mr P's avatar shows clearly that the 'emperor' of traditional Christianity is prancing the streets without clothes. I agree with you that we should pray for the souls who believe that doubt is unchristian.

OK - so you believe that myth - that these pieces of toast sell for thousands on E-bay. You don't really believe that do you???? No, and neither do I.

Penelope, what Nick says about eBay is actually true. These stories aren't myths.

'Virgin Mary' toast fetches $28,000
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4034787.stm

Virgin Mary pretzel bidding at $10,950 on eBay, and climbing
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews ... _virg.html

Virgin Mary Pretzel For Sale On Ebay
http://sharoncobb.blogspot.com/2008/02/ ... -ebay.html

"Virgin Mary" Pretzel Passes $1M On eBay
http://www.wayodd.com/virgin-mary-pretz ... ay/v/8990/

Penelope wrote:OK Chris - I will tell you where to look for the reincarnation reference....and it certainly isn't vague. It is where the 'people' say, 'some say that that John the Baptist was Elijah the prophet returned to earth. And Jesus - doesn't tell then off...he just says... for so he is. Look at Matthew Chapter 17 -Vs 11-13 - it's not the one I wanted but it will do. I am not quoting this to convince you of anything other than that reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible;....there are other references but I can't find my concordance!!! Sorry, I will try to find more and post the references up if you are interested.

Saying this is Christian reincarnation is an interesting take on the 'who do you say that I am?' line. If they said Jesus was Krishna that would really set the cat among the sacred cows. When Jesus asks the question we get the following exchange in Matthew 16:

Peter's Confession of Christ
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

This leaves open the possibility that Jesus is a reincarnation of Elijah or Jeremiah, but in a sense is arguing that the prophets participated in a bigger spiritual reality, and that 'the Christ' is the ultimate human spirit.

BTW www.biblegateway.com is a great online concordance.

Penelope wrote:
OK - so you believe that myth - that these pieces of toast sell for thousands on E-bay. You don't really believe that do you???? No, and neither do I.

Myth? I do indeed know about the EBAY sales...as Chris posted. Do I necessarily believe the person who bought it really believes it is Jesus there? Mayb e not...a few might have just wanted a publicity stunt or something...but of course, that is just conjecture...but that sum of money was paid as the reports attest.

But just imagine......A young girl of say, 17 years.....comes on here to discuss her problems with her 'fundamentalist christian family...in the deep south of America......and she sees your avatar.....that is going to scare her away immediately. How can we help people to stop being scared of the indoctrination.....if you post mocking, avatars. I have read two or three posts from such young people, who reach their teens and start to question......believe me, it is very scary...I have been there. It would be a matter of compassion on your part to remove it. I usually make a joke.....but this is not funny.

Sorry Mr P, this is such an opportunity.....on this Forum....and IMO you are not helping.........try, for me, please.....to see that it is unkind of you.

Nope. I have had many serious conversations with people about all this subject matter. There was a young man I workled with that had a similar situation, not the cultish indoctrination we see on the extreme..but he was questioning and we had the opportunity to connect. I talked to him a few times about things regarding atheism and religion and was not mocking anything at all. I think he got something from these conversations. If someone is coming here for some sort of guidance and gets spooked by a picture like that...well I cannot help that...it would show me they are too far gone anyway.

The way I see it is, by showing what a joke religion is, we can get more people to see how easy it is not to be 'scared of the indoctrination'.

Jesus toast is a joke. I really do not care who gets offended by it because those that WOULD get offended usually offend me with every word they spew. Really...move on to topics that are impacting our lives Penelope. How about that jerkoff who shot those people in the church in Knoxville? Let's worry about stuff like that ok?

OK Mr P. - Keep your piece of toast!!

I didn't want to join this discussion.....because I knew by the name of the book...that it would stress me out for no good reason.

The young man in Texas (and really, what do I know about Texas?) actually sent me a PM and asked me to join in. If some one asks me for help....I try to give it....that is my religion (not superstition!!!).

I would like to write a book called - 50 Reasons People Give for Hoping in God!! as an answer to Mr. Harrison's book. Unfortunately.....I know I am not able to express myself well enough. It is just 'Hope' after all.

I think as human beings we need to develop 'Forebearance'......trying to understand the reasons why people behave and react the way they do. Once we understand the reasons.......we might, Oh we just might...be able extend our boundaries....and communicate.....that can only be good.

I have felt hurt and disturbed this week...watching people I have come to care about.....hurling insults and mockery at each other......

I am merely trying to understand your reasons Mr. P....for the toast.

You have answered me:-

The way I see it is, by showing what a joke religion is, we can get more people to see how easy it is not to be 'scared of the indoctrination'.

We can become so scared....we can't 'think' anymore. Some people, like you, become agressive; attacking the people rather than the 'system'. I would like to politely point out.....that, yours in not the way to do it.....but I am trying to use my forbearance...and understand why you want to do it this way.....keep your mocking toast...

I will try to hold on to my 'hope'....that we can reach out to people and communicate.....and perhaps avoid....

Penelope. How about that jerkoff who shot those people in the church in Knoxville? Let's worry about stuff like that ok?