Will
Well, yeah, I'd strongly agree that zealotry is offensive, simply bad behavior, if by zealotry we mean the tendency to want to remake the world in the image of our religion.
That is pretty much what I mean when I say zealotry.
Will
I wouldn't call all deep belief zealotry, though, because many people manage to hold beliefs that are meaningful to them while avoiding condemning others for what they do or don't believe.
Neither would I, for instance... you will not see me criticize Buddhism because those believers do not attack my lifestyle, or vandalize my car, or claim that I am un-American and damned because I do not follow their beliefs. In the case of Christians however I do not grant this pass... they have done this to me and continue to invade my life on a regular basis.
Will
As for the word dogma, it has a very negative connotation but should be used in the right situation and not just labeling any belief whatsoever.
By dogma I mean the slew of rules that accompany religion, not the belief itself. But you rarely see belief without the dogma.
Christ functions, in an unnoticed and equivocal way, as shorthand for a vast system of beliefs and institutions on whose behalf he is invoked. Put simply, this means that when an evangelist or an apologist invites you to have faith "in Christ," they are in fact smuggling in a great number of other issues. For example, Chalcedonian Christology, the doctrine of the Trinity, the Protestant idea of faith and grace, a particular theory of biblical inspiration and literalism, habits of church attendance, etc. These are all distinct and open questions. Theologians have debated them for many centuries and still debate them. Rank and file believers still debate them, as you know if you have ever spent time talking with one of Jehovah's Witnesses or a Seventh Day Adventist. If you hear me say that and your first thought is "Oh no, those folks aren't real Christians," you're just proving my point! Who gave Protestant fundamentalists the copyright on the word Christian?
No evangelist ever invites people to accept Christ by faith and then to start examining all these other associated issues for themselves. Not one! The Trinity, biblical inerrancy, for some even anti-Darwinism, are non-negotiable. You cannot be genuinely saved if you don't tow the party line on these points. Thus, for them, "to accept Christ" means "to accept Trinitarianism, biblicism, creationism, etc." And this in turn means that "Christ" is shorthand for this whole raft of doctrines and opinions, all of which one is to accept "by faith," on someone else's say-so.
Robert M. Price
Will
I wonder, Frank, if there is a magnitude-of-threat element involved in our separate attitudes on this matter. I don't have the sense of a clear and present danger that you seem to have, even though I live in a conservative area and have been concerned enough about religion insinuating itself into government to write several times to the newspaper stating that we are not a Christian nation.
As a life long atheist I have seen and continue to see the uglier side of religion, and it is not limited to just the fanatics, people who are normally very respectful and nice often turn nasty and judgmental very quickly when the term atheist is brought up.
Food for thought...
Why do you think that the vast majority of Christians believe that this country was founded as a Christian nation?
It is certainly not from reading up on the history of the subject.
Is it possible that the church has put forth this idea and is encouraging its acceptance?
Does this not seem like a dangerous manipulation and a reach for political power to you?
Will
There is also the matter of the positive good done by churches in the country that I think has to be recognized. True, just by virtue of their being religious organizations, they don't perform any service that a secular body can't' perform, but the fact remains that their impact is huge due to its volume. This is why I've said we would be worse off if the church doors were locked.
I think that if you looked back through history the conflict that religion has caused greatly outweighs the good, furthermore even if religion is doing more good than bad right now (and I don't see that it is) there is nothing stopping it from causing more horrendous atrocities in the future. All religion needs is the power, something it is striving to attain even as we speak.
Will
The examples are not parallel for several reasons, but in any case you'd probably want to get your psychotic person some help rather than criticizing him or her. The Christian believer doesn't need mental health treatment (though you may not agree!),
The belief that a virgin gave birth to the son of a god, who was crucified and returned from the dead, who now speaks to them through prayer and miracles is in no way less of a delusion then the brain eating zombie cockroaches.
Will
but the beliefs, within certain common-sense limits, are really his right to hold without molestation.
Not exactly, it is their right to believe if they want, but I have the right to speak out about the belief's absurdity if I choose to, if the truth hurts thats to darn bad. I had to accept the fact that Santa Clause was not real, I got over it.
Will
The believers themselves do not always play by these rules (regarding nonbelievers), very true, but I'm not sure that justifies tit-for-tat.
Tit-for-tat is not the reason for my exchange, just as a person has the right to believe whatever they want I also have the right to point out how silly it is, especially when the person insists that I follow along with their delusion.
Will
Finally, in case I'm mischaracterizing any part of your view, perhaps you have positive things to say about religion in general or Christianity in particular, but I've not seen them. Thanks.
There are some things that religion has a good handle on, such as a sense of community and mutual support. The problem is that those advantages are only open to people of specific beliefs. Any person speaking contrary to those beliefs in a church or religious setting will soon find themselves back out on the street shunned by the community and devoid of their support.
If you could harness that sense of community without the associated dogma you would have something worth bragging about.
Later