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Is belief a choice?

#18: Jan. - Mar. 2005 (Non-Fiction)
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Mr. P

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Re: Is belief a choice?

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No...sorry.If the God knows, there is no choice. Once someone or something knows the result, the actions of those observed are nothing more than a sadistic peep show.Sounds like the explanation of the Judeo-Christian God is paying lip service to what those who follow "him" (another point that God is man-made...it has a sex?) want to believe.If the outcome is known from the subjects birth, there is no way to change it and thus there is no choice.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. PI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Ken Hemingway

Re: Is belief a choice?

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Mad, I've read quite a few of your posts now, and I never seem to get any closer to understanding what it is about religion that interests you. Sometimes I think that you are interested in it as a social and cultural phenomenon. But that would not preclude you from recognizing the falsity of many of the beliefs upon which it is based. Perhaps you are like an anthropologist who has gone native, and is reluctant to distance himself too far from his subjects for fear of losing an empathic connection he relies upon
Ken Hemingway

Re: Is belief a choice?

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Alternatively, Mad, perhaps you could tell us what you think are the core beliefs which make someone either (a) a monotheist, or (b) a Christian. Then whether you yourself hold any of those beliefs.
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Ken Hemingway: Mad, I've read quite a few of your posts now, and I never seem to get any closer to understanding what it is about religion that interests you.That's probably the most complicated question I've been asked on BookTalk. I am interested in them as social and cultural phenomenon, as well as intellectual phenomenon, which people tend to exclude. But that doesn't describe the whole of my interest, and I reserve judgement on the validity of religious belief until I feel satisfied with my understanding of the context in which religious belief takes place. One of the crucial mistakes in the popular modern evaluation of religious belief, I would say, is thinking that it necessarily attempts to occupy the same creative or intellectual space as philosophy, science or the arts.or perhaps you are afraid that if you confronted the truth too directly it would undermine your belief in the value of what you spend so much effort investigating?And what truth would that be?Alternatively, Mad, perhaps you could tell us what you think are the core beliefs which make someone either(a) a monotheist -- that's rather simple, I'd say. A monotheist is anyone who believes in the existence of a single deity to the exclusion of all other deities; certain conclusions tend to arise therefrom but are not entirely necessary to the core belief --or(b) a Christian -- this is a rather more complicated question. The first belief, I would say, is in a modified form of the Judaic God, or rather of the continuity of the Judaic God in the form of an explicitly Christian God. The second belief is in the existence of Jesus, though that belief may be literal, mythical, or abstractly theological. That is to say, that once you've established the notion of Jesus, Christianity permits a number of variations. Mainline Christianity, I would say, is characterized by the imposition of Pauline interpretation, which posits a historical Jesus with a somewhat specific theological slant -- ie. that Jesus is the incarnation of a particular character of God, and that via a cosmologically significant act of sacrafice Jesus has removed a metaphysical obstacle between God and man (the guilt of sin). Some theological work is necessary to maintain Christianity as a strictly monotheistic tradition, and some would argue that it is nearly impossible to do so (this is, incidentally, one of the Islamic arguments against Christian theology).Then whether you yourself hold any of those beliefs.I believe in God, though I'm more than upfront about the fact that such belief is not susceptible to logical proof. My argument in BookTalk have mostly been geared towards demonstrating the "reasonability" of theism, as opposed to its presumed rationality or irrationality. (Have I made the differences between reasonability and rationality clear elsewhere, or should I reformulate the distinction here?)Having established that tenent of belief, the rest of my theological beliefs tend to follow a line of descending confidence. A God may exist, but it is beyond the capacity of humans to say anything concrete about God with any real certainty. Forced to speculate, I would say that the conception of God that makes most sense to me is largely Hellenistic in the Aristotelian sense. That includes characteristics of monotheism and a certain abstract purity. That is not to exclude the possibilities explored by other religious traditions, and part of my study in comparative religion is of a personal interest.As for Christianity, there's a lot I could say in its defence both as an instance of religion in general and in defence of Christianity for its own sake, but I'll consign myself to outlining the points at which I diverge most from the doctrine of mainline (Pauline) Christianity. Probably the most notable departure is my interpretation of the doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven, which I read in the Gospels as institutional rather than cosmological. That isn't to say that I reject the notion of an afterlife altogether, just that I don't think that's what was implied in Jesus' references. The cosmological, almost Zoroastrian concept of a dualistic afterlife seems to me an implication of the Pauline interpretation of Messianism in Christianity, although these are ideas that I'm still exploring in my reading. The second major departure is along cultural and ethical lines, by which I mean that mainline Christianity seems to me to have falsified much of the ethical content of Jesus' teachings in favor of a materialist notion of Christendom. The question of the central assertion of Messianic Christianity -- ie. that Jesus was the incarnation or "son" of God -- I leave open as a possibility.I hope that clears some things up for you, though I hope it doesn't nail be down too much for the simply reason that I myself and reserving judgement in the desire of maintaining an honest search for truth.
Ken Hemingway

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Mad: Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Now, when you say: A monotheist is anyone who believes in the existence of a single deity and I believe in God, what is it that the terms God and deity refer to?
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Oh boy. At first I thought I was merely satisfying a point of curiosity, but this is beginning to look like an attempt to argue me out of theistic belief. Fine, I'll play along for the moment.Now, when you say: A monotheist is anyone who believes in the existence of a single deity and I believe in God, what is it that the terms God and deity refer to?I'll suggest three basic minimum requirements for a monotheistic deity and leave it at that. There's so much variability in terms of the conceptions of deity that anything beyond those suggestions would likely be falsified by the evidence. The first attribute would be holiness, a sense of being "wholly other", that is, distinct from what we recognize as merely natural or merely incarnate or simply "mere". The second attribute, and this is more to the point in monotheism, would be absolute, a sense of deity as exclusive or representing some form of limit that is not exceeded by anything else. And the third would be existence, which is to say that a monotheist does not believe in a strictly hypothetical God but asserts the reality of that god, even if its reality is distinct from that of the natural world.Now, as regards my belief in God, I would say that it conforms to those three requirements, save in that it permits doubt on the matter -- that is to say, it is not a blindly confirmed belief. As I mentioned in my last post, it only goes beyond the minimmum requirements of deistic belief (which is not necessarily to say strictly monotheistic belief) with some lessening of confidence. Make of that what you will.
Ken Hemingway

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Mad wrote: Oh boy. At first I thought I was merely satisfying a point of curiosity, but this is beginning to look like an attempt to argue me out of theistic belief.Not really, Mad. I don't have a great passion to pick arguments. But I am curious about theists for a couple of reasons. One: maybe they have figured out something that I've gotten badly wrong. I truly believe that if I came to the conclusion that there really is a loving God looking after the world I would be very thrilled. Two: Maybe there is some way of looking at God language which enables it to be used to speak profoundly about spiritual issues. If that were true, I'd want to understand it. Now, what I find interesting about your three characteristics is how little they tell me. Let me quote some things that have been said about God, and the conclusions that I draw (offset).In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp So, God can create things.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God has a Spirit.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God says things. Also, it sounds like he can do magic.And God called the light Day&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God can name things.And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God can bless things.And God saw every thing that he had made&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God can see things.And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God can rest.And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp God plants gardens.Now surely you can see why, reading this, I would come to the conclusion that God is, in some ways at least, a person. The things that are said about him are all things that only make sense if you are talking about something which at least has most of the characteristics of persons.But you don't say anything about the personhood of God. You say he is holy, absolute and existent. Is that because you are talking about a different God than the Jahwist is? If that's not it, why do you not mention what must surely be a central feature of the nature of God? Is it because you assume I know all this? But this is what I get so confused about. Innocent theists seem to have no problem with saying that God is kind of like a person. They say they believe in a personal God, and have utter disdain for people (often theologians) who reject the idea of a personal God. I think I know how to deal with this kind of theist. We just flat out disagree. But more sophisticated (?) theists seem to distance themselves from the idea of a personal God. And I wonder if what they are saying is something I could believe and all we disagree about is whether the language being used is
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Re: Is belief a choice?

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Ken Hemingway: Now, what I find interesting about your three characteristics is how little they tell me.If you want a plethora of information, you're better off talking to a traditional theist.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ken Hemingway

Re: Is belief a choice?

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Well, Mad, thanks again for all your efforts. I think at this point I'm ready to give up. I'll continue to look for people who want to talk about what is sacred or spiritual in the world and in life, but I think I'm going to have to restrict myself to people who willing to do so without talking in terms of gods. To me the effort of trying to figure out what theists mean by the terms they use, and why they think they can make the claims they seem to make, distracts too much from the goal I want to see us tackle.
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Re: Is belief a choice?

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I'm afraid that if you're looking for a more or less direct definition of a deity, you're going to have to look at the question both theologically and historically. A good starting point is the Greeks. Primitive Greek religion begins with the notion of deity as that which is greater than humanity. That's an ontological categorization -- greater in terms of power of being -- and a rather simple way of thinking about it is that anything immortal is greater than humanity because humans are mortal. For that reason, all sorts of things become gods in primitive thought, from natural objects like the elements to more abstract notions like justice. Monotheism is a bit like early natural science in its assertion of unity; just as the first philosophers sought the unity of the world in the concept of nature of physis, monotheists seek the unity of being in God.I hope that helps. Good luck.
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