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Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

#25: April - June 2006 (Fiction)
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Mr. P

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Must be me going off on a tantrum again huh? Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Captioning Blue Lily's last post, I think we can see exactly why we should LOOK for meaning in fiction. I do not think anyone writes JUST to write a story. Even if the prime mover was a creative urge, experience and ingrained social issues are bound to emerge.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Greg Neuman

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Quote:As someone who writes fiction, I can tell you that's probably not the case. Even if you don't want to take my word for it, there are plenty of books and essays about writing which reveal the extent to which authors are often surprized at what crops up in their own books without their intent.As someone who also writes fiction - and has made his living as a professional Writer for over 10 years - I disagree. Yes, stories do tend to take on a life of their own at times, but the author has ultimate control. And considering the thorough editorial process that novels go through before being published, I can say with extreme confidence that what is in Ender's Game is only what Card wants in Ender's Game.When finished, works of fiction usually do look quite different from the author's original outline. That's just part of the writing process. But any meaning - moral or otherwise - that survives writing, revision, editing, and publishing is meant to be there.Quote:I think it's intellectually dishonest to presume that you know what an author intended. Readers are only capable of judging the content of a book according to what they take from it. As far as I'm concerned, authorial intent is only valid up until the moment the book hits the reader's hands.I know what the author intended because Card has stated, fully and precisely, what he intended. Therefore it is not presumption, it is fact.The only valid meaning any work of art can have is the one that its creator puts there. Such meaning can be simple and dull (Scream III), straightforward and interesting (The Lord of the Rings), multi-layered and insightful (The Satanic Verses), or intentionally cryptic and impenetrable (Gravity's Rainbow). But regardless of the nature of the work, the person reading or watching it does not actually add anything to it; the best they can hope for is to be astute enough to grasp 100% of the artist's meaning.People can look at Michelangelo's David and get anything from "Naked dude!" to "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like a god! The paragon of animals!". In that sense, yes, people take different meanings from any work of art. But if someone says David is an expression of the renaissance peasantry's apprehension over declining grain prices and emerging market economies on the Iberian peninsula, he's either crazy or full of shit.Quote:That Card has been accused of any of those things is the fault of those who are more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work.They are indeed "more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work", but the problem isn't their interest in authorial intent. The problem is that they're seeing intent that doesn't really exist. Their "specific reaction" is either woefully imperceptive or intentionally beligerant.I'm actually a little surprised that distinction needs to be pointed out.Quote:I agree, and I think that's the opposite end of a spectrum that you could chart along Nichomachean lines. On one end is the view that literary appreciation should attempt to conform to some nebulous conception of what the author intended. On the other end is the view that all works of art either can or cannot be interpreted as a kind of allegory for what the reader already believes, and that such works are only valuable when they can and are made to conform. And as with Nichomachean spectrums, I'd say the best path is the middle path.Appreciation of any work should attempt to grasp the artist's meaning as completely as possible. It should not attempt to distort the artist's intent in order to make a moral argument on behalf of the reader or viewer.G "Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Greg:Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.Thanks,Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Greg Neuman

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Quote:Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.I'm going by Card's introduction in the Ender's Game revised edition. In it he plainly states that:1) He sees fiction writing primarily as a tool with which to tell a story, and therefore the novel is largely free of any cryptic, layered meaning.2) Ender Wiggin was created as the protagonist for Speaker for the Dead; Ender's Game was written mostly for the purpose of fleshing out his background.I searched for that introduction on the 'net, but I haven't been able to find it. However, the revised edition of Ender's Game isn't a rarity or anything; anyone who wishes to read Card's statements on the subject can certainly go to a book store and do so.G "Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
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Mr. P

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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HA! I think I have that edition. This is where my skipping the Introduction is a bad thing!Thanks Greg!Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
blue lily

Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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I more or less agreed with you until this:Quote:The only valid meaning any work of art can have is the one that its creator puts there.I don't believe there are valid and invalid meanings to art. One of the points of art is that it's interpretive. There can be valid and invalid statements about the creator's intent, though. ***************The Gimp Parade
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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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I agree with Lily. Art is not totalitarian!Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Greg Neuman

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Quote:I don't believe there are valid and invalid meanings to art. One of the points of art is that it's interpretive. There can be valid and invalid statements about the creator's intent, though.If the artist has intent, then the meaning of her work should be the expression of that intent. Good art is not merely pleasing to the senses, it conveys a message. How can a message be conveyed if everything is always open to any interpretation the viewer cares to give?Far from being the point of art, too much interpretation actually ruins art.Now, that said, an artist can certainly create a work that is purposefully left open to some interpretation. There can be subtlety, layered meaning, allegory, and the presentation of ideas that will intentionally provoke different reactions from different viewers. But 1) that is not the case with Ender's Game, and 2) even when art is open to interpretation, the meaning is still put there by the artist. It's just that she's included more meaning than what might be immediately obvious.Interesting discussion.Gedited for a typo "Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."- Malcolm Reynolds, SerenityEdited by: Greg Neuman at: 5/11/06 8:37 am
Greg Neuman

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Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15

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Quote:HA! I think I have that edition. This is where my skipping the Introduction is a bad thing!I wonder, could we get Card as a chat guest? I'd certainly like to hear him elaborate on much of what he says in that introduction, especially seeing as how I largely agree with his views on writing fiction.First and foremost, tell a good story. Add meaning and depth where you can, but never forget: The reader is there to enjoy himself by getting lost in the world you create, not to have you proselytize at him for an hour or two. If an author is sacrificing most of his readability and entertainment value for the sake of making a point, he'd probably be better off as an essayist or an op-ed reporter.G "Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
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