riverc0il: as i have already stated, i would be willing to read a balanced book that critically examines the humanistic position but one that does not rely on the existance of god and juxtoposition of belief vs unbelief to prove a point.I'm not convinced that it argues from that point of view. His preface seemed to me to indicate that, whatever his belief in regards to religion, he's argued from a largely naturalistic standpoint, and has met criticism from religious readers for precisely that reason.At any rate, I'm dropping my suggestion. But the part of me that loves an underdog will be seeking out this book. I intend to read it as quickly as possible and post a brief synopsis, along with a thumbs up or thumbs down, in the "Secular Humanism" thread that Chris posted. That way we can at least have an answer to the question he posed.humanism has nothing to do with faith any ways!That's a topic for another thread. Suffice it to say, I think there's likely a very large element of faith in humanism. I also think we would do well to trace the history and development of humanism. The "Humanist Manifesto" that Chris has posted once or twice on BookTalk seems to me like a rather late manifestation of a philosophical stance that has had the better part of four centuries to develop -- it also seems to concentrate a great deal more on humanism's aspirations that on its methods. There's more to know about humanism, and I don't think we can reasonably entertain criticisms of humanism until we know a bit more about its premises and its conclusions.my biggest point here: just because this is a freethinker community does not mean we should entertain every book under the sun with an open mind. we all have limited time here and limited choices on what we read. if something doesn't look like it holds water, why bother?I agree. But I disagree that we've given this particular book sufficient consideration to determine whether or not its arguments are rational. All we know of its arguments so far are that they're levelled against some aspect of humanism.the lack of critical reviews substantiating that this book has merit is most alarming and is the main reason behind this belief.There is an equal lack of reviews undermining its validity. All I feel justified in concluding from this is that it isn't a very frequently reviewed book. And given how easily you guys have dismissed it, I suspect that I know why.But I'll make more suggestions later on, and I'll steer clear of this topic until I've actually had a chance to read and evaluate the book. You guys may be right; it might be crap. I just don't feel like I've seen enough evidence to pronounce that verdict yet -- and I'm a picky guy when it comes to what I read. I'm not trying to be a burr in anybody's side. I wouldn't have resuggested the book had I remembered that it got disqualified from consideration last time; I simply forgot.

This Crimes Against Humanity Amazon link lets you by the book new.Mad, it may be advantageous to select a book which one of us had read before and can vouch for. We can avoid books like Value and Virtue, which none of us cared for.If you want to learn about Middle East history, I'd recommend William Cleveland's History of the Modern Middle East 4896/qid=1144034413/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/103-3545851-3518213?s=books&v=glance&n=283155". It presents more perspective, while A Peace to End All Peace focuses on a few years after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They're both very good books.

river: "Crimes Against Humanity" may not be the best choice simply because it comes across as something of a text book. The topic sparked my interest -- the origin of the concepts and laws concerning human rights is something that has interested me ever since I read Hannah Arrendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem". Before that, it hadn't really occurred to me how recently we've begun to think of genocide as belonging to a category like that of "a crime against humanity". All sorts of complex problems arise therefrom. I stumbled on "Crimes Against Humanity" just looking through the Borders web site, but it looks like a fairly comprehensive study, and it's really the only one of its kind that I've seen.Julian: You're right that it will usually be helpful to read books on the strength of trusted recommendations. But as it is, we don't have that many people participating in the discussions. We may be better off looking for trusted recommendations outside the pool of probably discussion participants.Look at it this way: assuming that you just finished reading "Moral Politics", it will still be three months before we even vote on whether or not it's our quarterly reading. Maybe you have better recall than I do, or maybe you took careful notes, but I know that I wouldn't be able to make the same sort of contributions to a discussion that I had read three months prior that I would if I were currently reading the book. Given that you were one of the three or four people really involved in last quarter's discussion, I wouldn't want to see you only half involved in an upcoming discussion. Would you be willing to read the book again, three months from now? If so, then I have no objection. But if you'd be reluctant to do so, then I'd rather pick a book you haven't read, in hopes that you'd be willing to contribute to the discussion as you read.

I think tackling Robert Fisk's massive The Great War for Civilisation : The Conquest of the Middle East would be an excellent education in the history of the Modern Middle East, crucial contemporary issues in the region, and future prospects as well. Fisk is an intrepid journalist who has covered the region for thirty years and has spoken face to face with many if not all of the key players that have helped to make up this turbulent history. He certainly has a point of view and will only challenge us to decide where we line up on many eminently important concerns in the world today. Quote:From Publishers WeeklyStarred Review. Combining a novelist's talent for atmosphere with a scholar's grasp of historical sweep, foreign correspondent Fisk (Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon) has written one of the most dense and compelling accounts of recent Middle Eastern history yet. The book opens with a deftly juxtaposed account of Fisk's two interviews with Osama bin Laden. In the first, held in Sudan in 1993, bin Laden declared himself "a construction engineer and an agriculturist." He had no time to train mujahideen, he said; he was busy constructing a highway. In the second, held four years later in Afghanistan, he declared war on the Saudi royal family and America.Fisk, who has lived in and reported on the Middle East since 1976, first for the (London) Times and now for the Independent, possesses deep knowledge of the broader history of the region, which allows him to discuss the Armenian genocide 90 years ago, the 2002 destruction of Jenin, and the battlefields of Iraq with equal aplomb. But it is his stunning capacity for visceral description

DH, any idea on what time periods are covered by "The Great War..." and how in depth Fisk explores the early parts of the last century or so? I am interested in the last 30 years of Middle Eastern history and politics, but I wouldn't want to focus on them to the exclusion on the earlier history of the 19th and 20th century. Those seems like crucial periods, and I'd really like to take a closer look at those.

MA: DH, any idea on what time periods are covered by "The Great War..." and how in depth Fisk explores the early parts of the last century or so? The primary focus involves contemporary issues throughout his 30 year career in that part of the world. But he works to place all of these events in historical context. He has a few essays that focus specifically on historical issues: the history of European Colonialsm in the Middle East would be his expertise. Starting with Napoleon's interest in Egypt, through France, Great Britain, two world wars, a cold war, oil, and America's war on terror...he makes the right connections...or Left as it is.

Here's a page of reviews for Fisk's "The Great War for Civilization". They should be worth checking out in considering that title. Looks like a pretty mixed bunch. Just scanning through them, the most common complaint appears to be that Fisk's approach is untidy and polarized by his emotional responses. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know that I can maintain interest in nearly 1200 pages of anger. That said, the average of the reviews is marginally favorable, and it may be worth while considering the good points the reviewers note.

Great link for the Reviews Mad. Fisk presents a strong and provocative point of view. He is not doing disinterested scholarship: but activist journalism. Of course, I think all scholarship has an activist element: serving political ends and alliances. Fisk is honest and up front about his allegiences. His anger is his critique, which is scrupulously documented and crushing. This can wear on the reader, no doubt. I think he represents a kind of journalism that tells the truth about things that matter, and is well worth his occasional storms.

Directive 19 The Memoirs of Sturmbannfuhrer Rolf Otto SchillerWritten by Rolf Schiller and Transcribed and Translated by Paul K. HarkerReview by Richard R. Givens: Perhaps the first book that explains the German perspective and reasons for the Holocaust. Mr. Schiller frankly discusses his distressing role in the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. Deeply profound and disturbing at times, this book recounts the career of an SS Legal Affairs Officer and speaks to us from the mind of a man who helped organize the destruction of the European Jews. Highly educational to anyone seeking to understand the methodology of genocide in the modern world.This truly is a frank and disturbing book that explains the German reasons and methods of the Holocaust from the Nazi perspective. The author served 30 years for war crimes and wrote his account 60 years after the war. It's interesting to see his human and psychological development through the war years. Certainly a book worth reading and discussing.

This has to be one of the best suggestions I've ever seen on BookTalk. Please click on the above link and read the excerpt. I'd love to read and discuss this one.