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Both science and religion are wrong

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Harry Marks
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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LanDroid wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:18 pm Scriptures cannot be upgraded.
While I agree with the basic observation, that science as a process seeks upgrading while religion resists it, I want to take exception to the absolute way this has been expressed.

First, because empirically it has happened: Buddhism is an "upgrading" of Hinduism (as are Jainism and Sikhism), Judaism and Islam are "upgrades" on polytheism, and Christianity is an "upgrade" on Judaism. All of those were somewhat traumatic "revolutions" in folkways, but, as with the examples LanDroid gives, there are also gradual improvements going on most of the time.

Second, it is worth thinking anthropologically about these systems of beliefs. At their best, they are collections of almost disconnected insights, like the Biblical book of Proverbs or the I Ching. But occasionally some sage will receive a revelation, which is to say perceive a gestalt that organizes the folkways conceptually, and if those are taught and eventually written down, they exert a powerful influence on the thoughts of others, concerning how to live life. We have trouble resisting the magnetism of a conceptual structure that seems to make sense of complexity.

But because this gestalt comes with implications for our sense of right and wrong, it will be difficult to let it go once we have endorsed it. To forgo our sense of "why" certain things are right and others wrong is to risk moral disorientation, even chaos. The powerful pull of orthodoxy, with its strong attachment to structure, has been documented over and over. For me, that is the most important reason why religion resists upgrading.

There is another interesting aspect of the contrast, though. Science proceeds by fragmentation, that is, by focusing on increasingly specific aspects of reality in order to get better and better accuracy in description and understanding. Big conceptual structures ("paradigms," in Kuhn's terms), like the four humors or evolution or gravity or relativity, often link those specialized parts together, They illuminate which aspects of the specifics are most important.

Religion, by contrast, requires conceptual structures that deal holistically with life. At bottom, religion cannot tolerate "that was then, this is now," or "who is going to make me (respect others)?" because these fail to give a rationale for choices consistent with community life. Even the moral neutrality of Taoism is suspect, and its mystical insights have never really had a powerful influence because there is a massive disconnect between them and the exigencies of life in community.

Unfortunately, literal theism is the most economical way to express such a holistic narrative about why we should behave. There has never been a way to break down the big picture into smaller pieces and to focus on increased "moral accuracy" in specialized areas. Rather there is a constant tension between big picture moral truth and the pressures exerted by discrepancies of power. Might vs. Right is the rock on which moral systems keep foundering. And theism, with its ideas of judgment in the afterlife, solves the problem rather elegantly (but not with any descriptive intellectual integrity). Thus the tension in modernity between descriptive accuracy and religious structure is a tough one to resolve.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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Harry Marks wrote:While I agree with the basic observation, that science as a process seeks upgrading while religion resists it, I want to take exception to the absolute way this has been expressed. First, because empirically it has happened: Buddhism is an "upgrading" of Hinduism (as are Jainism and Sikhism), Judaism and Islam are "upgrades" on polytheism, and Christianity is an "upgrade" on Judaism. All of those were somewhat traumatic "revolutions" in folkways, but, as with the examples LanDroid gives, there are also gradual improvements going on most of the time.
I heard Joseph Campbell say very similar things, don't know if that's where you got that. But I am not talking about those sorts of dramatic changes as new religions form or a slow cultural evolution.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
- Revelation 22: 18 - 19
As proscribed at the end of the New Testament, scriptures cannot be modified or upgraded in any way shape or form. This may be inspiring at times, but it is horrible when atrocities are made permanent. I used to think the caste system in India was a powerful cultural artifact, but when I read the Bhagavad Gita, I was horrified to find it was created by a deity and engraved in Hindu scripture.
(Lord Krishna, The Personality of Godhead said) According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.
Chapter 4 13

Brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy. Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness – these are the natural qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work.
Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kṣatriyas.
Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there are labor and service to others.
By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect.
Chapter 18 41 - 45
We are told that India is attempting to move away from that caste system, but when you see it enshrined in scripture, it is extremely difficult to imagine how that can happen. Anyone can point to this 2500 year old text and claim that structure is God's will and attempting to change it is evil.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
Ephesians 6: 5 - 8
Christianity seems to be a counter-argument to my position as it was used on both sides of the slavery controversy, but no longer endorses it. However that change was only after a horrific secular action known as the civil war vanquished one side. Without that, preachers would still be quoting the bible to support slavery.

My main point is scientific texts are revised when new information is received, but divine texts cannot be altered and are wielded by those who want to enforce outdated concepts. Forever.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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LanDroid wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:55 pm I am not talking about those sorts of dramatic changes as new religions form or a slow cultural evolution.
if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
- Revelation 22: 18 - 19
As proscribed at the end of the New Testament, scriptures cannot be modified or upgraded in any way shape or form.
And yet it happens. The story of the woman caught in adultery ("whoever is without sin among you may cast the first stone") appears in manuscripts of John after about 400 A.D. but in earlier manuscripts is missing. Similarly some ancient manuscripts have no resurrection appearances at the end of Mark, but just an empty tomb and an announcement of an appearance to come.

The Book of Revelation is not accepted as part of the Bible by all Christians, and was disputed for centuries before acceptance by the mainstream. It seems only the Epistle to the Hebrews was more disputed, of those in the modern Canon.

Frankly, I agree that "holy scripture" is a tragically static source of authority, and you spell out several good reasons for seeing it that way. I am part of the portion of Protestant Christianity that doesn't regard it as such, and considers the love of God and the life of Jesus (as much as we can know it) as higher authorities. Many awful passages are simply ignored.

The Bible itself includes many controversies and revisions that fly in the face of considering it absolute and unchangeable. For example, the prophets, over and over, denounce ritual and the authority given to it, especially by contrast with concern for fellow human beings.
Landroid wrote: This may be inspiring at times, but it is horrible when atrocities are made permanent. I used to think the caste system in India was a powerful cultural artifact, but when I read the Bhagavad Gita, I was horrified to find it was created by a deity and engraved in Hindu scripture.

My main point is scientific texts are revised when new information is received, but divine texts cannot be altered and are wielded by those who want to enforce outdated concepts. Forever.
Yes, this is a point that has been made for centuries by scholarly critics. Once things are written down, they are hard to modify. Therefore, giving absolute authority to writings is inviting trouble.

However, with regard to your point about practices such as slavery or castes being unchangeable because they are scriptural, you should really think about this a bit deeper. Lord Krishna endorsed a system that grew out of the Indo-European invasion and domination of India, and it has been maintained for economic reasons, by force, for millennia. Including before Lord Krishna ever gave it any thought. Likewise, importation of slaves was practiced for economic reasons, and would have happened with or without the words of Ephesians. Canon law did exert some civilizing influence in holding that it was wrong to enslave Christians, but economic forces found ways around that restriction.

Marx made this point effectively by observing that "the superstructure" (such as laws, religion and academic thought) is shaped to reinforce the power of the owners of the means of production.

I see nothing wrong with modernity criticizing the static view of scriptural authority. But I think it goes astray when it considers this to be the essence of religion and religious authority, as if no significant part of the religious population worships according to different principles.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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The story of the woman caught in adultery ("whoever is without sin among you may cast the first stone") appears in manuscripts of John after about 400 A.D. but in earlier manuscripts is missing. Similarly some ancient manuscripts have no resurrection appearances at the end of Mark, but just an empty tomb and an announcement of an appearance to come.
Yes as Bart Ehrman and many others point out, the bible has undergone many changes due to copying errors, translation errors, and "corrections." But again even in this case, that requirement in the Torah has not changed and does not recognize Jesus' update. However to your point, although the admonition to kill those who commit adultery still exists, Jews and Christians do not enforce that. Why not? Well I think that exposes the paradox that even though we have numerous documents that purport to be the word of God, if those requirements go against our current sense of right & wrong, we will ignore them. This reinforces the fact that morals and ethics do not come from God.

Word of God: "X horrible things and Y trivial things are absolutely required."
Preachers, congregation, and Canon Law: "X is abhorrent and Y is ridiculous, so let's not do those things."

Again, that reinforces the notion that we do not really obtain moral and ethical standards from God. But to circle back, obviously there is massive evidence that even when God has abhorrent or trivial requirements, many people insist on that as with the Hindu caste system and American fundamentalism.
However, with regard to your point about practices such as slavery or castes being unchangeable because they are scriptural, you should really think about this a bit deeper.
Because slavery and caste systems are supported by the word of God, I shouldn't have to think deeper should I? If ethical and moral principles come from an eternal righteous Deity that created the universe, they should be absolutely correct, nay? However in contrast to that it's impossible to imagine how much better the world would be if one of the 10 commandments stated "Thou shalt not own, buy, sell, rape, injure, or inherit slaves and must free them. I am the Lord your God." Or if Krishna had not created the caste system and not informed Arjuna that, in so many words, "If you do not slaughter this enemy, which does indeed include your kinfolk, you will be known forever as an effeminate wimp!"
Marx made this point effectively by observing that "the superstructure" (such as laws, religion and academic thought) is shaped to reinforce the power of the owners of the means of production.
This superstructure is better explained or enhanced by the book we discussed a while back Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents by Isabel Wilkerson.

I have to admit and remember that I'm in a weird place. Although I am agnostic, I was raised to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. (Which is a show stopper once you find any of the numerous contradictions and errors.) So that's how I still approach any sacred text. Regardless of whether you accept the book of Revelations, the Bible cannot be changed (although it has in the past). I understand many people do not operate that way. I even attended a huge "Mega-Church" for a few years that emphasized happy-happy-joy vibes and attempted to ignore divisive restrictions that some members still hold.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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LanDroid wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:03 pm However to your point, although the admonition to kill those who commit adultery still exists, Jews and Christians do not enforce that. Why not? Well I think that exposes the paradox that even though we have numerous documents that purport to be the word of God, if those requirements go against our current sense of right & wrong, we will ignore them. This reinforces the fact that morals and ethics do not come from God.
Well, not by way of inerrant scriptures, anyway. I mean, for me the process by which people reflect on ethics and refine them is God at work, but that view doesn't fit well with the idea that a once and for all revelation arrived by some back channel of supernatural connection, and must never be modified.

I confess to being mystified by those who claim such a revelation, prominently including Mohamed and Joseph Smith. Smith seems to have just been a scammer and a fabulist, primarily interested in gathering a flock of followers who would help him build a mighty harem and keep them all well fed. But Mohamed seems to have been genuinely interested in reform, using the authority claims of monotheism to purge superstitious animism and reorient his people toward piety and generosity. Similar claims, so, similar methods. But seemingly very different "authenticity."

The historical analysis of the Burned-Over district in upstate New York, where Smith's revelation began to be preached, suggests that male rootlessness and diversity of cultures were probably major forces at work in the uptake of Mormonism. (One of my ancestors took up with a group of Indians and half-breeds in North Central Pennsylvania, apparently liking the free ways practiced among them.) No reason to suspect rootlessness in Mohamed's Mecca, but cultures were surely clashing. Jews had been dispersed long before, Christianity was getting well established in Ethiopia and Southwestern India, and the Arabs were a trading people. Does such a situation make people more open to "revelation"? I wonder. I think there is some important force of liminality at work, but I am having trouble pinning it down.
LanDroid wrote: there is massive evidence that even when God has abhorrent or trivial requirements, many people insist on that as with the Hindu caste system and American fundamentalism.
Yes, and sometimes it seems that triviality adds to the attraction, since it isn't a practical value that one can trade off against other practical values. I have heard some interesting justifications for ritual food requirements, especially Marvin Harris' ("Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches,") analysis that Indian prohibition on eating cows, and Middle Eastern prohibition on eating pigs, have to do with forbidding the wealthy from indulging tastes that are particularly heavy users of resources. But I don't think those can explain forbidding the cooking of meat with milk (or cheese.)
LanDroid wrote:
However, with regard to your point about practices such as slavery or castes being unchangeable because they are scriptural, you should really think about this a bit deeper.
Because slavery and caste systems are supported by the word of God, I shouldn't have to think deeper should I? If ethical and moral principles come from an eternal righteous Deity that created the universe, they should be absolutely correct, nay?
Well, it would be a much bigger improvement in the world if the one to recognize the deeper forces at work, in shaping those absolute commandments, was one of those fundamentalists rather than you. I don't hold a lot of hope for that, but it does happen.
LanDroid wrote:I have to admit and remember that I'm in a weird place. Although I am agnostic, I was raised to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. (Which is a show stopper once you find any of the numerous contradictions and errors.)
I was too. I get the discomfort this generates. I no longer resent the authoritarian mindset of my youth, though I think it can be improved on. But I do resent the smallness of mind that was imposed by that authoritarianism.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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I mean, for me the process by which people reflect on ethics and refine them is God at work, but that view doesn't fit well with the idea that a once and for all revelation arrived by some back channel of supernatural connection, and must never be modified.
Hmmm....OK so sacred texts that purport to be the word of God do not need to be viewed as such.
In contrast, the process of determining one's own ethics and morals is God at work.
And yet a secular process of determining right & wrong somehow cannot be successful because it lacks God.
Although God is good, eternal, and unchanging, we should not trust texts that claim to be divine and unchanging because ethics and morals change over time, but God does not.

Disclaimer: That may read as an attack, but it's just my agnostic / fundamentalist cranium failing to make sense of it...
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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LanDroid wrote:
In contrast, the process of determining one's own ethics and morals is God at work.
And yet a secular process of determining right & wrong somehow cannot be successful because it lacks God.
I don't agree that such a secular process cannot be successful, or that it lacks God. Obviously it does not refer to God, or intentionally glorify God, but I believe that such a process is godly nevertheless. The theology behind that view is "process theology," (and I don't particularly recommend process theology as reading, since it is a rather strange and alienating project,) based on Process Philosophy founded by Whitehead.

In that view, we can be part of the process, and mostly the process does not happen without human participation. Its core is not referring everything to the idea of God, but rather doing what we call godly things. These days we often say these things are "human" or "humanitarian" and that's fine.

Going along seeking morality and doing good deeds, without religion, may be better, for many people, than trying to fit some idea of God into the picture. I tend to promote being part of the church, but my reasoning has to do with a very earthly, this-life view of "salvation." Stemming from the sociology of Robert Bellah's "Habits of the Heart" and Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone," I value the community experience. Community is where we are "meant" to be, where we learn to cooperate and make decisions with others, to find common ground and overcome differences.

There is a lot of judgmentalism and rancor in most church communities, but I think it is good for me to face that and try to find ways to undermine it and bridge the gaps.
LanDroid wrote: Although God is good, eternal, and unchanging, we should not trust texts that claim to be divine and unchanging because ethics and morals change over time, but God does not.
I believe God is good, yes. Goodness is the nature of the process that I think of as God. In a sense I also believe God is eternal: in the same sense that math is eternal. God is not a process whose spiritual truths depend on some goal they are meant to achieve. God is not a means to any particular end, and so God communicates to us about eternally true things, not about how to get from A to B.

But I don't believe God is unchanging, since the process I have in mind takes its nature partly from the actions and motivations of people, and these change with time. Process theologians talk about humans "co-creating" with God. Platonic ideals of God, "than which nothing better can be imagined," are really not helpful.

A much better idea of God's nature can be gotten from the Thou/It analysis of Martin Buber ("I and Thou"). I/It relations are utilitarian, in which the other is a means to some end. I'm coming to understand that this overlaps heavily with left brain thinking, which is fragmented to focus on problem solving and correctness, and is very mechanistic and literal. I/Thou relations are holistic, regarding the other as a subject in their own right, capable of surprises and therefore a source of life's interest. And that corresponds roughly to right brain thinking, which takes reality holistically, and manages metaphorical thinking (which steps outside rigorous definitions) as well as music and a sense of who others are. To Buber, all that is I/Thou is part of God.

I think the idea of relating to God through prayer or meditation, without relating to others, is rather empty, like algebra that never actually solves any problems. The thoughts might be wonderful to contemplate, but until we bring theology back to encounters with others, it will tend toward left brain fragmentation and, frankly, obsessiveness. Likewise authoritarian religion tends toward a mechanistic view of what is to be done. I recently read about the practice of selling indulgences, in which the Medieval church quite consciously treated the general population as a resource to be used for gathering money. No such manipulative system can ever be godly.
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