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Ukraine invasion

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LanDroid

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Re: Ukraine invasion

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Geo wrote:Some Americans feel very strongly anti-Israel or anti-Hamas or anti-Palestine to the point they want to hurt foreign nationals living on American soil, but I'm always amazed that they can harbor such hatred. How can they be so sure of themselves? There are two sides to every story.
It's worse than that. Let's say it's objectively true that one of those three groups (Israel, Hamas, Palestine) is totally at fault for the current situation (which it isn't). How could that justify attacking random members of that group in the US? Obviously it does not, but any excuse will do when striking in blind anger & hatred.

Related: There is no justification for the acts of Hamas on 10/7, but those actions cannot justify all acts of retaliation.
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Harry Marks
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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geo wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:47 pm I do think Putin is an evil dictator and his invasion against Ukraine was a brutish act, causing profound misery for untold numbers of people, both Ukrainians and Russians. Maybe his invasion was justified to some extent, given the perceived threat of NATO on Russia's doorstep.
I read an interesting article in Harper's, from two months ago, stating that there were negotiations on-going for a long time before the invasion, and that Zelensky was actually ready to accept Russian terms before he was challenged at home and reversed himself. Harper's loves to be iconoclastic, led by their chief foreign policy expert Alexander Cockburn, but if that was even substantially correct it puts the situation in a different light.

Of course, Zelensky may have been taking the only option available to him, in the same way that Czechoslovakia asked Hitler to name his terms for not invading (whereupon he invaded anyway), and then a firmer line in the U.S. may have encouraged him to be tougher, but that is not what events looked like.
geo wrote:As much as I disagree with United States' foreign policy since Vietnam, I feel like supporting Ukraine is definitely the right thing to do.

I agree. Whether or not this debacle could have been avoided, Putin's invasion must not be accepted. I am so ashamed of the Republicans' turnaround on this, I can't speak coherently about it. Okay, their M.O. is to cater to the rubes and the bougies so that they can hold power for the rich, whose bidding they actually do. Take money from the billionaires to buy ads that will keep them in power. I get that. But the old adage that politics stops at the water's edge was sound wisdom, and they have really sold us out to follow their Fearless Leader down the populist rabbit hole.
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LanDroid

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Re: Ukraine invasion

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LanDroid wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:41 am Trying to reconstruct a bare bones timeline of recent history in Ukraine. It seems none of this should be happening based on critical earlier agreements and the US is more complicit in the chaos than generally understood.

1994 Budapest Memorandum
US, Russia, and Britain agree to existing borders and sovereignty of Ukraine if they give up the world’s 3rd largest nuclear aresenal. Discussed earlier in this thread.

2014 February
US plans and supports overthrow of democratically elected President Yanukovych Victor
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/ ... in-Ukraine

2014 February – March
Russia invades Crimea in power vacuum and annexes from Ukraine. This took only 2 months. No enforcement of the Budapest Memorandum 20 years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexatio ... Federation

2024 February
Russia invades Ukraine

More detailed timeline here:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ev ... 022-02-28/
Sorry to quote myself, but I'm still highly disturbed at that very brief summary of the history behind this debacle. A few lessons?
  • If you have a nuclear arsenal, never EVER never FORNEVER give that up for ANY reason whatsoever, no matter how SWEET the deal appears at the time! Harry Marks mentioned the Budapest Memorandum was intended to keep nuclear material out of the hands of terrorists, but look at the results of disarming Ukraine now.
  • If you are developing nuclear weapons, do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it takes to make that happen to prevent an invasion. I'm sure Iran and North Korea have digested this message.
  • No matter how DELICIOUS the thought of overthrowing a democratically elected Government is, the US should never do that again. Witness Ukraine, many South American countries, and Iran. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ratic-argo
  • Never trust treaty obligations endorsed by the United States. Native Americans are painfully aware of this.
  • It's disturbing that we sound like the 1960s John Birch Society screeching about how commies are taking over the world... :chatsmilies_com_92:
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