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Documents and folders

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DB Roy
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Documents and folders

What we have with Donald Trump is a failure to communicate--as in communicate with the government that he has classified documents. Gotta hand it to the dems on this one--J6/insurrection hearings pt1, then stolen documents, then J6 pt. 2 and you know pt. 2 is going to drop some bombshells all leading up to the elections. Good timing.

The tide is turning for the dems in the polls. It looked like a slam-dunk for the republicans at one time but now the public is warming up to Biden. But much of the reason the tide is turning is because of the conservatives/republicans themselves. I refer to the overturning of Roe v. Wade by SCOTUS. What kind of stupid move was that? You would think they would have the sense to wait until after the election before springing that one on everybody. They really thought that this was going to be a popular move?

I thought as soon as I read it that they just screwed themselves. I know a few anti-abortion people and they want exceptions. This "no exceptions" garbage is just not popular. I think many anti-abortion conservatives were a bit put off by SCOTUS taking it upon themselves to unilaterally end Roe v. Wade. Congress? Sure. The President? Yeah, okay. The Supreme Court though? Whose rights will they decide to take away next? And what's to stop a future liberal court from neutralizing the 2nd Amendment? This is NOT how it should be done! Now, conservative candidates are deleting their views on abortion from their websites. They howled and hollered for Roe v. Wade to be overturned at any and all costs, finally got it, and now can't distance themselves from it fast enough.

The dems have picked their fights well as far as proceedings against Trump. The document thing is definitely the way to go. It completely shuts up the "LOCK HER UP!" crowd. The chant now gets caught in their throats. They were also wise not to specify in the warrant for a search of Trump's buildings that they were looking for classified documents. They simply say the documents Trump was supposed to have turned over to NARA. So, all this whining that Trump declassified them doesn't even matter because even if he could declassify the documents that way doesn't mean they were his to keep. They still belong in the National Archives regardless.

But declassification doesn't work the way Trump's supporters apparently think it does. He can't wave his hand over a carton of documents and say, "I declassify you" and now they are declassified. There is an official process that must be followed or the act of declassification is not official. Each of these documents will be of intense interest to some department or other and to specific individuals within those departments. Money has been allocated to these departments for the care and protection of these documents. If Trump wanted to declassify them, he would need to talk to the heads of those departments and the individuals who deal closely with those documents and their contents. Declassification would be debated thoroughly to make sure that declassification is in order. Then the classification stamps at the top and bottom of each page (both sides) must be marked up in a specific way to indicate that this classification was changed or deleted. Trump did none of this.

All classified documents in the U.S. government are meticulously tracked 24/7. The department responsible for their safekeeping must be able to account for their classified documents at ALL times. Folders containing classified documents that are removed from their holding area have to be logged out at a certain time by a certain person who must have the proper clearance. When that person is done, she returns the folder and logs it back in and the time is noted. The logs will account for every second of a document's whereabouts at any given time, i.e. a chain of custody. National Security is compromised if the current whereabouts of a document is unknown.

So, a slew of documents was turned over from Trump's people to NARA. One of Trump's lawyers, Christina Bobb, officially verified with her signature that all documents requested had been turned over. When NARA went through them, however, they could not help but notice a great many files were missing. When the FBI went to the locations mentioned in the warrant, they found twice the amount of documents that Bobb had given them piled up on the floor in the office of Donald Trump. Among the pile were over 40 empty folders, some of which were marked Top Secret.

Now, these empty folders...were they empty when Trump's people took them? If yes, why then did they grab them? And where are the materials they once held? If no, then what happened to those materials after the folders arrived in Trump's office? Some of Trump's defenders are saying that these empty folders were hastily grabbed by various people as they were leaving the White House after losing the election. Okay, let's say that this is correct. It shoots a hole through the idea that Trump declassified them. They would have had a list of those documents and matched the folders to it. But grabbing everything and stuffing it into moving boxes headed for Florida is just stealing.

It's pretty hard to say that Trump didn't know about this. They were in his office. Three documents were found in the desks. There are apparently two desks in the office and between them, they found three classified documents. Donald Trump sits at one of those desks. So, how could he not know?

The real question is, though, why did Trump take all that stuff? Why? Regardless of its security classification, what was his attraction to these documents? We know he was tickled pink about the stuff he knew about Macron in France, He bragged a bit about it. So perhaps he was taking stuff that he could use as blackmail against foreign leaders. Perhaps but a lot of this material was marked top secret. There had to be some very sensitive stuff in those folders. And we don't know who else has seen them!

Now, remember when I stated earlier that classified documents have to be tracked 24/7 in a continuous chain of custody to prevent compromising national security, look what has happened here: Trump took secret documents of the U.S. government to his office in Florida. By the time the government took them back over a year later, we do not know how many, if any, foreign agents may have combed through them. They could have copied them and left the originals behind. We don't know. The chain of custody is broken and national security is compromised.

Then consider the empty folders. Are the documents they once contained still in Washington somewhere relatively safe and sound or were the contents of the folders emptied after arriving in Florida? Where are any of these documents right now? No one knows. HUGE disruption of the chain of custody.

Basically, we have to consider that ALL of this material stolen by Donald Trump--and he did steal it--has been compromised, That's what happens when you lose that chain of custody. You now have to conclude that some foreign power or agency somewhere knows the contents of those documents. It will cost untold billions to plug up all the holes Trump has potentially drilled for us and will take many years.

Also, Christina Bobb is in a world of shit. Since she signed the statement that all documents had been turned over, she is officially the one who took responsibility for the statement and will have to answer for it. As far as the govt is concerned, she kept all those documents and folders not Trump. She will be the one they charge and prosecute.

Will another close to Trump cut a deal and flip?
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Re: Documents and folders

Among the pile were over 40 empty folders, some of which were marked Top Secret.
This lends credence to Michael Cohen's suspicions that Trump has docs spread all around to his other residences, family, and frienemies.
The real question is, though, why did Trump take all that stuff? Why?
Another potential reason is the simple fact that since Trump had those documents, Biden did not. The former President could have been hiding critical information from the current President.
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

Yet, Reality Winner leaked the contents of a document. Trump stole dozens of them. Yet, who went to prison?
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Re: Documents and folders

Trump will probably not go to prison, however.....the DOJ is not done with him yet... Sounds like nothing will happen before the mid-terms...
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

He won't go to prison. He should but he won't. What they probably will do instead is bust up his empire and sell it off to bidders. Leave him with nothing. I think he'd rather go to prison.
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

Trump's people asked for a "special master" to be appointed to determine whether any of the documents he took to Florida can be shielded from the FBI by executive privilege. A federal judge named Aileen Cannon--a Trump appointee--ruled in Trump's favor in a very questionable way. She stated that the investigation must stop until the special master (who has not been chosen yet) can look through the documents to decide which should be returned to Donald Trump. She stated this was necessary otherwise po', li'l, ol' Donald might suffer damage to his reputation. Aside from the fact that Trump has no reputation to protect and has always acted like he didn't give a shit what anybody thought of him, suddenly his sensitive side put a lump in the judge's throat. I have never heard of a such a bizarre, weak argument. Yes, he will suffer reputational damage--so what? Clinton suffered reputational damage. Nixon suffered reputational damage. So what if Trump suffers reputational damage. Welcome to the wonderful world of American politics. If the heat's too hot, Donald...

The DOJ is giving Cannon a chance to correct herself before they appeal to the 11th circuit court. They say that Trump can have all the non-classified docs he wants. He can keep them all. But they want the case to continue while they restrict themselves solely to the classified documents.

Cannon will likely backtrack and grant the DOJ's request. The problem for her is not so much the illegality of her ruling but the impossibility of following it. If Trump is allowed to shield these documents from the FBI then this amounts to an executive attack on the executive branch. It is simply illogical. She also stated that the DOJ could continue without FBI involvement which is impossible. The FBI does all the footwork for the DOJ as well as having a vast intelligence gathering and analysis network that the DOJ depends on. Take the FBI out if it and the DOJ's investigation grinds to a halt. Her ruling indicates that she doesn't know the FBI is part of the intelligence community. It's like a CEO leaning on his managers to double production after firing every single floor worker. It's a senseless ruling.

If Cannon does not reconsider then the DOJ will file an appeal with the 11th Circuit Court which, although rather conservative, is very unlikely to back Cannon's ruling because it has no standing. Classified documents cannot be Trump's personal property. Imagine a special master looking through a top secret document and then handing it to Trump. Preposterous! It cannot be his. Classified documents are not covered by attorney-client privilege. They cannot be. They are the property of the United States government and people.

Moreover, how would a special master even review a top secret document unless he or she has top secret clearance? Who do Trump's people seek to appoint to this role? It has to be someone who already has that clearance. They can't get clearance just to be a special master and no special master needs a clearance for classified documents because this individual won't need to look at any. They don't apply to attorney-client privilege. Nor can one apply for security clearances. Security clearances are granted when one is accepted for or assigned to a certain project or department that requires those clearances for designated personnel. In some cases, security clearances are revoked once a project is completed or the person leaves that project because those personnel only needed that clearance to do their job. They don't, otherwise, need it. So, they have to find someone with top secret clearance who wants to be associated with this malarkey.

Well...someone will do it. There seem to be no shortage of fools willing to sully their reputations and good names for this idiot. I just wonder what the republicans have up their sleeve. They got something in the planning. I expect a bombshell within the next few days.
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

I'm wrong once again. Cannon refused to reconsider. I just can't believe a federal judge is this stupid. Cannon did modify the order a bit and allowed the FBI to work with the Justice Department but they can't continue the investigation until every document--classified and otherwise--gets vetted for executive privilege that Trump doesn't have anymore and in documents where any attorney-client communication would never be found anyway. It's beyond bizarre. Trump's lawyers, none of whom have a security clearance or have ever seen a classified document, are being allowed in the judge's order to look at every single classified document. Over a hundred of them.

Moreover, of the folders that were photographed by the FBI and verified by the Justice Dept to be actual existing folders--nothing counterfeit--are dismissed by Cannon saying in effect: "Okay, there are folders there but how do we know that the documents that were in them were really classified?" If that made you shake your head back and forth vigorously a few times, then you were paying attention. Yep, how do we know that documents classified by the US intelligence community are actually really classified?

Now, that's just making stupid shit up. This is nothing but a deliberate stall tactic and time-waster. It's like holding up an eggshell and asking, "How do we really know that there was ever a real yolk inside this shell?" Just stupidity. This judge needs to be disbarred. A Trump-appointee doing something no federal judge has ever done before in the history of American jurisprudence--keeping the justice system from investigating an individual who has clearly broken the law. She offers nothing legal as a basis--it's just "Lay off him because I said so." Imagine a judge doing that for Charles Manson or Bernie Madoff--just blatantly shielding him without any legal regard.

The longer this drags on, the more compromised the nation is. Without an investigation, we cannot look for or locate any of the missing documents and so they are just sitting wherever they are sitting with no one trying to find them. Cannon further stated that she does not believe we have been compromised. I'm sorry? Is that HER job to determine??? That's the very basis of why we are investigating!!! We have to know whether or not we've been compromised. But without bothering to note that the whereabouts of these documents are currently unknown, Cannon just says that they not only weren't compromised, how do we even know they were ever really classified? It's embarrassingly close to something that Trump would actually say and so we know who is animating this stupid sock puppet of a judge.
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

A little bit to laugh about: Trump expected to split the bill for the special master but Cannon has informed him that he will foot the entire bill. At least that has legal precedent. The party that is granted a special master after requesting one pays for it--no one else. The problem is, of course, that Trump does not pay his bills. They'd have to haul him into court. Trump didn't mind. He went to court. Won some, lost some--all the same to him. The point is, he still came out ahead because he'd win some of those suits and so still paid less than if he just paid everyone as he was supposed to. Trump is notorious for not paying lawyers including Giuliani.

I don't know how much a special master costs per day but I'm willing to bet the farm that it isn't cheap. Typical cheap-ass Trump. He has millions in his go-fund-me accounts but he wants the DOJ to go in halfsies. So the longer Trump stalls, the more it's going to cost him.

The special master is federal judge Raymond Dearie. He was the only candidate that both sides agreed upon. The things I've read about him say he's a good judge who takes his job seriously and won't go MAGA or anything. I just wonder what he's going to do. Read classified documents where neither attorney-client privilege nor executive privilege are applicable? Same with personal correspondence--it is not subject to attorney-client privilege. All the rest, the DOJ offered to give him anyway. None of this makes sense.

I would say that Cannon is making a mockery of the judiciary but SCOTUS beat her to it.
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

Worst of all, Cannon's rulings miss the essence of the case. It doesn't matter if there is any attorney-client privilege or even executive privilege (impossible since he is not president), that's not the essence of the case. Nor does it matter is Trump actually really did declassify those documents. That is not the essence of the case.

The essence of the case is this: The DOJ and FBI are investigating whether or not Trump took documents home that he was not allowed to take home. They are also investigating Trump's handling (or, more appropriately, mishandling) of the documents as well. That's where finding these documents comes into play.

There's no way a special master should have interrupted any of this. It's already obvious that Trump stole these documents and compromised his own country. That's all we need to look at. No one cares if they are classified or whether there is privilege of any kind. Nor do the contents of those documents matter one bit. The point is, he stole them and then mishandled them and also did not hand them all over after a subpoena was issued to return ALL documents (although lawyer Christine Bobb is on the hook for that).
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DB Roy
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Re: Documents and folders

I'm finally right about something: the 11th Circuit Court shot down Cannon's ruling pretty much for the reasons I've already cited. The DoJ and the FBI may now continue to investigate the theft and current whereabouts of the classified documents. They made clear, as I stated, that it did not matter if the documents were declassified or not. Upon being declassified, they do not then automatically revert to Trump's possession. They must still be turned over to NARA. Trump's lawyers are refusing to say if Trump declassified them despite his claims that he did. For a lawyer to make that assertion in court without knowing it to be absolutely true is career suicide and why bother if the classification status of these documents is actually irrelevant?

Special Master Dearie stated that he is not inclined to look at the classified material as it does not apply to his task. All personal correspondence also does not apply. The rest of it, the DOJ offered to Trump already making this whole thing an exercise in wasting time. If Dearie doesn't look at the material, then Trump's lawyers will not see it either. In order for them to see it, first, they have to undergo background scrutiny for the clearances. There are abbreviated security checks to expedite the process but Dearie does not want these lawyers to see the documents because it puts them and the nation at risk. Dearie himself has no desire to see them for that same reason. In the intelligence community, there IS such a thing as knowing too much.

Even presidents don't know most of the classified docs the govt has. It's always need-to-know. If you need to know the stuff, then you can look at it with the proper security clearance. Without a need to know, it is actually unwise to read them as Trump's lawyers would be doing. If Kim in North Korea suspects you know who a network of informants in his govt are, you become his target. They will snatch you off the street and torture you for that info. That also exposes that informant network. So, you know that the govt cannot risk that (although we already may have). There is no way Trump's lawyers were going to be allowed to see that information.

Trump, his three adult children, their company and a few of its other henchmen have all been hit with a fraud lawsuit by New York Attorney-General Letitia James. They have what I hear is overwhelming evidence of fraud committed by Donald, Junior, Eric and Ivanka and the Trump Organization. The fraud is two-fold: they devalue their properties to get tax breaks but overvalue their properties for loan purposes with banks and insurance companies. The former is tax fraud and the latter are bank and insurance fraud. That is extremely serious.

James's suit wants the Trump Organization to pay a base fine of $250 million but Michael Cohen makes clear that this is a base payment and likely to get 3 or 4 times higher and up to a billion dollars once the extent of the fraud is known and, according to Mr. Cohen, there is plenty. He sees Donald and his kids getting indictments or perhaps only one of two will get indicted but indictments are coming and coming soon.

And Jan 6 hearings part II are also gearing up so get ready for some shit to hit the fan!
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