blt777 wrote: To be honest I wasn't going to come back to this conversation because I admit that I have been a fool and I suppose I shouldn't have "attacked" the op when I didn't have the full context, but honestly Harry pissed me off so I'm going to make one more contribution to this discussion.
I'm sorry if you ended up feeling like a fool. Like DB Roy you came on a little strong, and I argued with you. I think that's fair enough.
blt777 wrote:Lol white privilege my man that is a literal joke that I am not going to even acknowledge because I think the logic behind white privilege is a fallacy in itself. Btw quite bold of you to assume I am white, granted I am but lots of assumptions here
So I have been in enough discussions about race to have recognized that White people generally don't "get" that calls for everyone to be treated as an individual, and be color-blind, are calling for pretending that there is no discrimination going on. There are also people of color who are in denial about racism, but there are a lot fewer of them because they are on the receiving end.
I think we might have a productive discussion about your belief that white privilege is a fallacy.
blt777 wrote: Honestly Harry with your second paragraph you kind of proved my point. You call it the mere luck of the draw or in other words, the actions of an individual, as in whether or not you will be accepted by your neighbors depends on an individual's views, as in racist scum bags yes? Racism could be responsible but then again it cannot be and this leads me to my understanding of "systematic" racism. Systematic racism is racism quite literally ingrained within a governing body, yes?
I was speaking in the pretend voice of a person who wants us all to pretend there is no racism. To say, "Well, yeah, there is racism against group X but that's just their tough luck" is to justify racism. Its about like saying "Yeah, I stole that guy's TV, but I guess it was his day to be robbed." Doing wrong is doing wrong.
It's true that not all the sufferings of people of color are due to racism. It's also true that some people deserve to be held at arm's length and treated as a threat, and many of them are people of color. But why put up the smokescreen? Our country is screwing itself over because some people just can't bear to see people from a different group get an even break. I prefer to be part of the solution.
Systemic racism is not necessarily part of the law. If a person asking someone else to put a leash on their dog is threatened with a false accusation because the White threatener knows she will be given the benefit of the doubt due to her color, then there is systemic racism. If a bus driver trusts a White rider claiming to have forgotten a wallet to "put the fare in next time" and ride for free, but interprets the situation as a scam if there is a Black person in that situation, there is systemic racism. If Black people do worse on an impersonal test because they are asked about their race beforehand, thus having their anxiety level raised on account of being Black, there is systemic racism.
The point about it being a system is that it can work without anyone intending for it to work. If people just draw judgments about others based on their observations, and there just happen to be racial biases in their observations, and the result is segregation in housing and disadvantages in schooling and then trouble getting work because you were segregated into schools that weren't doing the job, then the system is perpetuating itself without anybody intending to be racist.
blt777 wrote: Except you yourself have just said that we are all individuals with different circumstances, meaning ALL people have different circumstances. Guess what? Life is not fair, some individuals do have it easier than others like you and me who have the time and the means to leave comments on the internet. That's called life, my friend life was unfair to all of us the moment we were born, me personally I admit I am privileged as I have been lucky enough to have grown up in a stable environment with a good family,
I hope you are hearing yourself. And I suggest you do some thinking about how enforced poverty passes on the trauma and the disadvantage to the next generation. Because our country did a very thorough job of enforcing poverty right up to 1970, and hasn't exactly fixed the systems that hold people down since then. Think about how many people believe Barack Obama was not a legitimate president despite the evidence. Think about the people ready to believe lie after lie because of racism. It's sickening, really.
blt777 wrote: You gave me some "numbers" but no sources? I have personally seen pie chart sources that I will have to dig for but I distinctly remember that people of color and women actually had an advantage in the hiring process, do you want to know why? I don't know why nobody does, nobody can discern motive completely from statistics but I'll give it my best guess, to meet a quota. As in a company must have this many women and this many minorities.
The source I was working from is
https://economics.mit.edu/files/11449
I had used it recently in an Economics of Social Issues class that I am teaching. I recommend you start on page 9 because that includes the info I mentioned. There is another good discussion at
https://www.nber.org/system/files/worki ... w17450.pdf
So, let's think about those pie charts. If you have 100,000 people qualified for 1000 jobs, and up until year X the 1000 jobs always went to White males, is it such a problem to insist that some of the people from other groups get their fair shot? You could put it up to a lottery, I suppose, but I think a little compensation is in order. That instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to White males, the way it was always done before, that instead you give the benefit of the doubt to women who are qualified, or to minorities who are qualified. And maybe that looks like hiring is biased in their favor, but the workplace is still dominated by White males and so the outsiders are still up against hostility and mistreatment.
blt777 wrote:So, it kind of conflicts with what you're saying about opportunities huh? Here you are toting words around like their facts, give me some sources and I'll give you some in return you passive aggressive guy. Plus is it really intelligent to cherry-pick scenarios and studies when a great number of studies and incidents can be conflicting and or not representative of a whole especially in a country where individuals have a great number of rights and liberties that logically make them more diverse in their lives and the lives of people they come in contact with?
Sounds like a productive discussion.
blt777 wrote:How am I disallowing critique? And I am sure as hell not being silent, sorry that you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm being "silent"
In my view, DB Roy was critiquing a sick society. I think he went too far and generalized about White people in ways that are not totally fair, but it isn't my aunt who is getting sucker punched or pushed to the ground for not being White enough for some jerk. So, in my view, when you advocated just treating everyone as an individual you were trying to disallow critique.
blt777 wrote: Btw if you seriously want to talk "speaking up" What is speaking to a random guy you assumed a whole lot about going to solve? Nothing. What is DB Roy's post going to achieve, nothing? This is a discussion forum, not a call to action or rallying of supporters for systematic change, so really, this ENTIRE discussion quite literally achieves nothing, it means nothing, whether it OPs passionate thoughts that I had a passionate response to upon first seeing it or it's you arguing with me in turn, so please don't even try and bring that "Silence is obedience" Shit in here.
I think it's better to challenge it when I see the sort of coverup for a racist system that some of your remarks amounted to.
blt777 wrote: I do not understand how it can be reasonably believed that white-colored people by virtue of their skin are more likely to channel it through racism and acts of hatred than other races when we are all the same with the very same behaviors? I honestly think it's just a wee bit ignorant to believe such a thing and a little prejudiced to believe that white-skinned people are more likely to commit acts of race-motivated hatred AND not be punished accordingly for it.
I don't think people believe that Whites are more likely to abuse others than other races would be if they were in the situation of dominance. I can't speak for DB Roy, but that is certainly not my feeling, and progressive writer Ta-Nehisi Coates says straight up that he thinks any race in a position of dominance like that would probably have done the same.
The point is, "other races would be just as bad" is not a good excuse for behaving badly. If we accept people misbehaving "because they can" then we are in effect saying that misbehavior is appropriate. White folks are generally in a situation of having their material needs met, and living in a free society, and one of the responsibilities that goes with that is to try to see that everyone gets to share in that prosperity and freedom (for a change).