blt777 wrote:It is obvious they have an agenda towards the white race in particular they are singling out racially motivated incidents involving white people being the instigators specifically as if to demonize white people specifically when all races have the capacity for hatred and hate crimes.

I would agree that all races have the capacity, but in this country White people have been dominant, and our "capacity" has become a roaring river of racism. I think I can find stuff in the way DB Roy expressed himself that I might quibble about, but what he is saying is basically true.

blt777 wrote: It is completely foolish what the posters are saying here, singling out white peoples race-related crimes when hate crimes are more prevalent and widespread for more races than white on Asian and white on black, such cases are simply ignored or downplayed in severity to serve an agenda of vilifying white people in general when all people are individuals and their actions should be judged as such,

This is what we call "White privilege talking." Let's just treat everyone as individuals, and then the fact that most of those individuals are more likely to offer me a job and more likely to accept me as a neighbor becomes the mere luck of the draw. You know, some individuals have it easier than others, and racism is not responsible because everybody is equally, individually racist.

Vilifying white people is not the point. Critiquing our behavior by the standards we believe in is the point. Maybe they are really racist in China or Uganda. It really looks that way sometimes. But I am American, and I don't want America to be a country that accepts that kind of thing. I am not trying to vilify White people, and since I have seen DB Roy's posts here for years, I don't think that's part of his agenda either. He's just pointing out the obvious interpretation of what we are seeing.

blt777 wrote: racism comes in many forms and the people here making grand assumptions and far reaches about white people as a race is in fact no better in thinking than the ones they are attempting to dismantle.

Yeah, I expect the OP could have been a lot more objective. But he was not reinforcing a system of oppressing people, he was holding the powerful to account. That's actually a really big distinction, and the defensiveness of White people when White misbehavior is tagged for its racism is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sure, let's make a country in which nobody is treated differently for their skin color or racial background. I'm all for it. But if you think that starts by disallowing any critique of White racism, you are just buying into the system and hoping other people will, too. Silence accepts oppression. Period.

blt777 wrote:What is racism if not ignorance and stupidity allowed to flourish? It is flourishing here with a number of assumptions on the part of the original poster. DB Roy here then goes on to say a number of false assumptions about the general populations of white Americans by saying shit like "It's the majority, not the minority" "Cancer has spread to all nooks and crannies of white society" Where is this acceptance? Where are the statistics to back up these claims? Its airless hatred spawned from fear being displayed here, similar in many ways to the way racists think and are motivated, by fear. I honestly think it's kind of pathetic that this post is accepted and agreed with blindly.

So, I'll give you some numbers. Applicants matched for job and education background, who differ only by race (or sex, by the way) are routinely judged differently according to their race. One study found that Black applicants with no arrest record were less likely to be called back or hired than White applicants with an arrest record. Wtf? Nobody I know thinks that people of color get a fair shake on the job market. And we are not even into zip code effects, yet, the effects of housing segregation that make a huge difference in the surroundings a person is raised in.

I know a lot of White people who are completely accepting of people of color. They have family members of other races, they would normally give an extra consideration to anyone because of being a person of color. Nobody, including DB Roy, thinks that all White people are sick jerks who would sucker punch a person much smaller or much older than themselves. And White society is getting a lot better than it used to be at holding White people accountable for hate crimes and other racist behavior. But we still have a ways to go, and that means there is still a cancer in the society.

I cringe a bit at the term "white race" that DB Roy used in his title and that blt777 repeated. We know there is no white race, and no black race. I hope the only reason we talk about race is that we have no other handy term for facial appearance. This goes to the stupidity of humans, a quite homogeneous species that loves to create distinctions of worth based on skin color and other facial features.

I think, too, that if blt777 would stick around for a while, they would find that thanking a post doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with what was said or how it was said, and that not slamming the poster for his/her difference of outlook is the norm here. The response to blt777 illustrates that.

But getting to what I hear blt77 saying, who could deny that there are different racisms, that not only whites are capable of racism? But we're talking about the history of one country, the U.S., and trying to determine the relative prominence of racism here over a period of 400 years. Another thing about racism is how it is weaponized to a greater or lesser degree by one group against another. In fact, isn't that power-wielding what we're thinking of when we identify racism as a great problem in this country? So I see no alternative to the view that white racism played a huge role in our history, and though I don't know a lot about other countries' history, my belief is that racism is a particular blot on ours. It's a blot made more glaring by our declared ideals.

I agree with Harry Marks that white racism has become less severe, so that we can idealistically envision a time when we are not a racist country. That so many are talking about systemic racism is, I suppose, a sign of this progress. Taylor asks whether it could be that our violence is the main culprit, with race being one more outlet for our violent tendencies. I agree we are a violent society. I don't think Steven Pinker can convince me this isn't still true.

Let me clear the air here for all the people here, I have never been to this website before a few days ago, can you please explain to me why I shouldn't have been defensive upon seeing a random post on a book discussion form post that clearly seems downright racist and ignorant out of context? You can't, how the fuck was I supposed to know that the original post was based on a book, and a much more broad topic? To be honest I wasn't going to come back to this conversation because I admit that I have been a fool and I suppose I shouldn't have "attacked" the op when I didn't have the full context, but honestly Harry pissed me off so I'm going to make one more contribution to this discussion.

Lol white privilege my man that is a literal joke that I am not going to even acknowledge because I think the logic behind white privilege is a fallacy in itself. Btw quite bold of you to assume I am white, granted I am but lots of assumptions here Honestly Harry with your second paragraph you kind of proved my point. You call it the mere luck of the draw or in other words, the actions of an individual, as in whether or not you will be accepted by your neighbors depends on an individual's views, as in racist scum bags yes? Racism could be responsible but then again it cannot be and this leads me to my understanding of "systematic" racism. Systematic racism is racism quite literally ingrained within a governing body, yes? Except you yourself have just said that we are all individuals with different circumstances, meaning ALL people have different circumstances. Guess what? Life is not fair, some individuals do have it easier than others like you and me who have the time and the means to leave comments on the internet. That's called life, my friend life was unfair to all of us the moment we were born, me personally I admit I am privileged as I have been lucky enough to have grown up in a stable environment with a good family, but I personally know a few friends of mine that don't have the luxuries I have, two of them are white and one of them is Hispanic, and I also have a friend who is African American and guess what? He grew up in a family that was more privileged than my own. But guess what else? That doesn't mean shit, I am one person in a country full of people and so are you Harry so when you say I PERSONALLY KNOW THIS MANY PEOPLE THAT BLAH BLAH, it doesn't mean anything. You gave me some "numbers" but no sources? I have personally seen pie chart sources that I will have to dig for but I distinctly remember that people of color and women actually had an advantage in the hiring process, do you want to know why? I don't know why nobody does, nobody can discern motive completely from statistics but I'll give it my best guess, to meet a quota. As in a company must have this many women and this many minorities. So, it kind of conflicts with what you're saying about opportunities huh? Here you are toting words around like their facts, give me some sources and I'll give you some in return you passive aggressive guy. Plus is it really intelligent to cherry-pick scenarios and studies when a great number of studies and incidents can be conflicting and or not representative of a whole especially in a country where individuals have a great number of rights and liberties that logically make them more diverse in their lives and the lives of people they come in contact with? How am I disallowing critique? And I am sure as hell not being silent, sorry that you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm being "silent" Btw if you seriously want to talk "speaking up" What is speaking to a random guy you assumed a whole lot about going to solve? Nothing. What is DB Roy's post going to achieve, nothing? This is a discussion forum, not a call to action or rallying of supporters for systematic change, so really, this ENTIRE discussion quite literally achieves nothing, it means nothing, whether it OPs passionate thoughts that I had a passionate response to upon first seeing it or it's you arguing with me in turn, so please don't even try and bring that "Silence is obedience" Shit in here.


Now well I am here I will respond to Dwill with a few thoughts. I agree with your first statement distinctions between human appearance are really only relevant when discussing the ancient history and the evolution of humanity and the quirks our species developed from adapting to various climates as we branched to all continents around the world. I honestly don't mean to slam anyone, I admit I had a passionate and honestly offended response, I was in a horrible mood that day and this post was simply a trigger for me nothing more. I must say is challenging people's outlooks and engaging in open discussion not also the norm here? What exactly is wrong with challenging people's views no matter how right or wrong they are and how right or wrong the responses are? There are no different racisms, there is only racism it is not as though racism changes meanings depending on the person who is racist. I know quite well the history of this country I know how racism has quite literally defined it in a great number of ways, why assume that I didn't know that, I am a history buff. There is no alternative to the view that racism has played quite a major role in our history, that's simply a fact and to oppose is it simply choosing to ignore the truth. I think it goes without saying that racism has been weaponized and wielded in positions of great power when racism is such a prominent part of United States history. I also agree with your last statement, but I do not understand how it can be reasonably believed that white-colored people by virtue of their skin are more likely to channel it through racism and acts of hatred than other races when we are all the same with the very same behaviors? I honestly think it's just a wee bit ignorant to believe such a thing and a little prejudiced to believe that white-skinned people are more likely to commit acts of race-motivated hatred AND not be punished accordingly for it.

I honestly don't have the energy to argue or have shit assumed about me, so I will just say this, I don't want to start a big hassle here, this is the only reply I won't be back but to see responses so all I want to say is that I did make a mistake because I myself was ignorant, I had no idea this post started from a book discussion or that it spawned from another discussion. I apologize for that I was a fool indeed, and all I have to say is hatred does no good to anyone or anything thanks for coming to my ted talk.

blt777 wrote: To be honest I wasn't going to come back to this conversation because I admit that I have been a fool and I suppose I shouldn't have "attacked" the op when I didn't have the full context, but honestly Harry pissed me off so I'm going to make one more contribution to this discussion.

I'm sorry if you ended up feeling like a fool. Like DB Roy you came on a little strong, and I argued with you. I think that's fair enough.

blt777 wrote:Lol white privilege my man that is a literal joke that I am not going to even acknowledge because I think the logic behind white privilege is a fallacy in itself. Btw quite bold of you to assume I am white, granted I am but lots of assumptions here

So I have been in enough discussions about race to have recognized that White people generally don't "get" that calls for everyone to be treated as an individual, and be color-blind, are calling for pretending that there is no discrimination going on. There are also people of color who are in denial about racism, but there are a lot fewer of them because they are on the receiving end.

I think we might have a productive discussion about your belief that white privilege is a fallacy.

blt777 wrote: Honestly Harry with your second paragraph you kind of proved my point. You call it the mere luck of the draw or in other words, the actions of an individual, as in whether or not you will be accepted by your neighbors depends on an individual's views, as in racist scum bags yes? Racism could be responsible but then again it cannot be and this leads me to my understanding of "systematic" racism. Systematic racism is racism quite literally ingrained within a governing body, yes?

I was speaking in the pretend voice of a person who wants us all to pretend there is no racism. To say, "Well, yeah, there is racism against group X but that's just their tough luck" is to justify racism. Its about like saying "Yeah, I stole that guy's TV, but I guess it was his day to be robbed." Doing wrong is doing wrong.

It's true that not all the sufferings of people of color are due to racism. It's also true that some people deserve to be held at arm's length and treated as a threat, and many of them are people of color. But why put up the smokescreen? Our country is screwing itself over because some people just can't bear to see people from a different group get an even break. I prefer to be part of the solution.

Systemic racism is not necessarily part of the law. If a person asking someone else to put a leash on their dog is threatened with a false accusation because the White threatener knows she will be given the benefit of the doubt due to her color, then there is systemic racism. If a bus driver trusts a White rider claiming to have forgotten a wallet to "put the fare in next time" and ride for free, but interprets the situation as a scam if there is a Black person in that situation, there is systemic racism. If Black people do worse on an impersonal test because they are asked about their race beforehand, thus having their anxiety level raised on account of being Black, there is systemic racism.

The point about it being a system is that it can work without anyone intending for it to work. If people just draw judgments about others based on their observations, and there just happen to be racial biases in their observations, and the result is segregation in housing and disadvantages in schooling and then trouble getting work because you were segregated into schools that weren't doing the job, then the system is perpetuating itself without anybody intending to be racist.

blt777 wrote: Except you yourself have just said that we are all individuals with different circumstances, meaning ALL people have different circumstances. Guess what? Life is not fair, some individuals do have it easier than others like you and me who have the time and the means to leave comments on the internet. That's called life, my friend life was unfair to all of us the moment we were born, me personally I admit I am privileged as I have been lucky enough to have grown up in a stable environment with a good family,

I hope you are hearing yourself. And I suggest you do some thinking about how enforced poverty passes on the trauma and the disadvantage to the next generation. Because our country did a very thorough job of enforcing poverty right up to 1970, and hasn't exactly fixed the systems that hold people down since then. Think about how many people believe Barack Obama was not a legitimate president despite the evidence. Think about the people ready to believe lie after lie because of racism. It's sickening, really.

blt777 wrote: You gave me some "numbers" but no sources? I have personally seen pie chart sources that I will have to dig for but I distinctly remember that people of color and women actually had an advantage in the hiring process, do you want to know why? I don't know why nobody does, nobody can discern motive completely from statistics but I'll give it my best guess, to meet a quota. As in a company must have this many women and this many minorities.

The source I was working from is
https://economics.mit.edu/files/11449
I had used it recently in an Economics of Social Issues class that I am teaching. I recommend you start on page 9 because that includes the info I mentioned. There is another good discussion at
https://www.nber.org/system/files/worki ... w17450.pdf
So, let's think about those pie charts. If you have 100,000 people qualified for 1000 jobs, and up until year X the 1000 jobs always went to White males, is it such a problem to insist that some of the people from other groups get their fair shot? You could put it up to a lottery, I suppose, but I think a little compensation is in order. That instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to White males, the way it was always done before, that instead you give the benefit of the doubt to women who are qualified, or to minorities who are qualified. And maybe that looks like hiring is biased in their favor, but the workplace is still dominated by White males and so the outsiders are still up against hostility and mistreatment.

blt777 wrote:So, it kind of conflicts with what you're saying about opportunities huh? Here you are toting words around like their facts, give me some sources and I'll give you some in return you passive aggressive guy. Plus is it really intelligent to cherry-pick scenarios and studies when a great number of studies and incidents can be conflicting and or not representative of a whole especially in a country where individuals have a great number of rights and liberties that logically make them more diverse in their lives and the lives of people they come in contact with?

Sounds like a productive discussion.

blt777 wrote:How am I disallowing critique? And I am sure as hell not being silent, sorry that you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm being "silent"

In my view, DB Roy was critiquing a sick society. I think he went too far and generalized about White people in ways that are not totally fair, but it isn't my aunt who is getting sucker punched or pushed to the ground for not being White enough for some jerk. So, in my view, when you advocated just treating everyone as an individual you were trying to disallow critique.

blt777 wrote: Btw if you seriously want to talk "speaking up" What is speaking to a random guy you assumed a whole lot about going to solve? Nothing. What is DB Roy's post going to achieve, nothing? This is a discussion forum, not a call to action or rallying of supporters for systematic change, so really, this ENTIRE discussion quite literally achieves nothing, it means nothing, whether it OPs passionate thoughts that I had a passionate response to upon first seeing it or it's you arguing with me in turn, so please don't even try and bring that "Silence is obedience" Shit in here.

I think it's better to challenge it when I see the sort of coverup for a racist system that some of your remarks amounted to.

blt777 wrote: I do not understand how it can be reasonably believed that white-colored people by virtue of their skin are more likely to channel it through racism and acts of hatred than other races when we are all the same with the very same behaviors? I honestly think it's just a wee bit ignorant to believe such a thing and a little prejudiced to believe that white-skinned people are more likely to commit acts of race-motivated hatred AND not be punished accordingly for it.

I don't think people believe that Whites are more likely to abuse others than other races would be if they were in the situation of dominance. I can't speak for DB Roy, but that is certainly not my feeling, and progressive writer Ta-Nehisi Coates says straight up that he thinks any race in a position of dominance like that would probably have done the same.

The point is, "other races would be just as bad" is not a good excuse for behaving badly. If we accept people misbehaving "because they can" then we are in effect saying that misbehavior is appropriate. White folks are generally in a situation of having their material needs met, and living in a free society, and one of the responsibilities that goes with that is to try to see that everyone gets to share in that prosperity and freedom (for a change).

blt777 wrote: I don't think people believe that Whites are more likely to abuse others than other races would be if they were in the situation of dominance. I can't speak for DB Roy, but that is certainly not my feeling, and progressive writer Ta-Nehisi Coates says straight up that he thinks any race in a position of dominance like that would probably have done the same.

The point is, "other races would be just as bad" is not a good excuse for behaving badly. If we accept people misbehaving "because they can" then we are in effect saying that misbehavior is appropriate. White folks are generally in a situation of having their material needs met, and living in a free society, and one of the responsibilities that goes with that is to try to see that everyone gets to share in that prosperity and freedom (for a change).

This has been my position since forever. Most folks speak of and strive for equality, arguing that the human species is not further demarcated by race. Blank Slate or not, we are all the same and have the same abilities with which to achieve and prosper.

Well, you can't have it both ways. There is no such creature as the noble savage. It is quite the opposite. Left in a world where hardship is the norm and pursuits of higher levels of existence are not even on the radar, nobility is not even conceptual. That's our base existence and nature.

We are all the same. And given that we must acknowledge that we are all, regardless of race (whatever that is) capable of the same good as well the same horrors. The only thing that set white folks above the rest were certain environmental and other situational factors that provided advantages that enabled rapid advancement.

If things had been just a little different, it is not so complicated to envision a world where the 'whites only' water fountains were a thing.

I also agree... This fact is not an excuse. We HAVE been able to advance and learn and achieve higher levels of existence over our basic needs. Unfortunately, education has been under assault by certain groups for a long time. Ignorance is embraced. This is also something that is not just white.

White privilege exists. Systemic racism exists. They need to be combatted. Just because they are not the ONLY reason that certain races and genders are marginalized, subjugated, or left behind does not mean they are not there and should DISGUST any real thinking person.

I work with a typical white kid that always tries to argue that these things do not exist. It is somewhat nauseating to watch him prove exactly what he is arguing against. Typical kid who's daddy owes the business and will inherit it even though he knows nothing about how to run it.

So why aren't I talking about the blacks who have beaten up or killed Asians or why not mention the Latin perps who also have done this? Why should I? These are the people that whites always tell me are inherently violent, barbaric, uncivilized, etc. These are the people whites tell me I should EXPECT to engage in this savagery. Yet, the white violators outnumber both groups and I get no explanation why that makes sense. Because when you tell me those other people are savages, that they'll kill you at the drop of a hat, etc., you are also saying that I should have no expectation that YOUR people act like that. But YOUR people ARE acting like that and in far greater numbers.

So, it comes down to that double standard that drives white privilege: when they do it, it's because they are subhuman savages but when WE do it, it's because we are being forced to have to defend our way of life and our heritage! It's the Southern rationalization applied all across the U.S. and so, yes, this racist cancer has spread to all of white society. White supremacy is now mainstream. That is NOT to say that ALL whites are engaging in it. Many are, in fact, forced to deal with family members who have bought into this idiocy and I have the greatest sympathy for them. That has to be tough. Imagine your brother goes off the deep end with this crap and then you see him in a surveillance video somewhere punching a 78-year-old man in the face and you know you have to turn him in before he hurts another person. Then when you do, your own mother disowns you because "How could you do that to your own brother?? I don't care about some fucking chink!" That has to be terrible.

But with that said, whites as a whole have a problem--it's called hypocrisy. "I'm sick of blacks playing the race card! That's all they do is play the race card!" So voting for a white racist because he's someone "who is finally sticking up for white people" isn't playing the race card????

And the denial that white privilege exists is utterly disingenuous. I hear guys at work saying, "I get up and I go to work everyday and I earn my pay and I pay my bills and my taxes and nobody helps me. Where's the white privilege??" That's NOT what the white privilege argument is about. White privilege is that there are black people who get up earlier than you and have to work twice as hard for less pay doing the same job and their annual earnings are far less than their white counterparts. But somehow, they have no right to complain about it or they are playing the race card. But are they? No, they are not. From a CNN Money article: "Recent college graduates with less than ten years of work experience also saw gaps in earnings by race. Black women with a bachelor's degree alone were paid 10.7% less than white women, while black men with the same credentials were paid 18% less than their white counterparts."

And you can roll your eyes and mutter, "Only an idiot listens to anything CNN says." But it makes no difference because it is still an undeniable fact that blacks earn not only less but FAR less than whites doing the same jobs. Not only are there numerous exhaustive studies that prove it but I have seen it myself in the workplace. I have seen it myself and I KNOW it happens. THAT is white privilege yet millions of ordinary whites not only believe there is no such thing, they get red-faced angry if anyone contradicts them. Why? It's probably tied to statistics as 58% of whites voting for Trump in the last two elections while only 43% voted for Obama in '08 and only 39% in '12.

Asians suffer in the workplace as well. There is an Asian glass ceiling that's hard to deny when you see how few Asians there are in top management positions. Figure it. Asians supposedly work hard, study hard, get the best grades, go to the best colleges, have degrees out the yin-yang and yet where are all those Asian CEOs and managers at? When I was in the service, I had no Asian officers on my ship--not one. I saw a few Filipino chiefs. Glass ceiling is usually associated with limits on female advancement. I never even heard of a female chief. Never saw one. Saw a decent number of female officers but no chiefs--anywhere. So, if white women suffer that badly from a glass ceiling, imagine how bad it has to be for Asian women to go anywhere. She has two glass ceilings above her head. So now you know why so many Asian women in this country marry white men. She won't go anywhere as Mrs. Chang but she might if she's Mrs. Chang-Wilson, if you get my drift.

So this is the state of things in which the anti-Asian violence is happening. It's the societal broth that is being stirred by the pandemic and this is the result.