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DWill

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Re: Trump Watch

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Here's a good 'equal time' article on the falsehoods and misrepresentations of both Biden and Trump. It's from the fact-check guy at the Wash Post, Glen Kessler. His column has become well-known for tallying the over 20,000 false or misleading statements coming from Trump. So, many Republicans dismiss it because, after all, it is the Post. But these people don't know that Kessler covers the other side, too. Trump's record of lies and misinformation has been so overwhelming that we forget that before Trump came along, Joe Biden was noted for getting things wrong, and even for lying, since plagiarism is a form of lying. If you want, you can read the piece and assess Kessler's side-by-side comparison.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... tale-tape/
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Re: Trump Watch

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DWill wrote:That incident needs to be investigated, of course. And so the conclusion is that Trump is justified in claiming that if he loses, it will be due to massive fraud with mail-in ballots. That is what die-hard supporters are saying, I guess.

No, it's not what "die-hard supporters" are saying, and if they are, they do not have a copyright on the phrase, nor should anyone that is reasoning mail in balloting can result in significant fraud be demonized for saying it.
Similar incidents are popping up more often. Everyone should be concerned.
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Re: Trump Watch

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ant wrote:No, it's not what "die-hard supporters" are saying
Oh yes, it certainly is what they're saying. I hear it nonstop all day long.
Similar incidents are popping up more often. Everyone should be concerned.
I don't think it should ever be less than a concern, just to maintain diligence. In the article you linked, the 9 trashed ballots were found and an investigation is underway, the culprit fired. The supervisor was diligent enough this time.

But how much of a concern?

It's unreasonable to think that of the 140 million votes or so cast, human error or stupidity or intentional ill-will won't cause some ballots to be misplaced or trashed. I also think it's unreasonable to assume that it would greatly benefit either side, as there are fervent supporters on both sides amongst election staff.

The real fear is a single concentrated effort by one side or the other, to the order of thousands or more ballots. That sort of fraud is the type that would tilt the scales, and is the type that there is no evidence of.

I'm curious if there's any fiction or nonfiction book that talks about how someone might hypothetically bypass the safeguards to perpetrate fraud on that level.
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DWill

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Re: Trump Watch

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ant wrote:
DWill wrote:That incident needs to be investigated, of course. And so the conclusion is that Trump is justified in claiming that if he loses, it will be due to massive fraud with mail-in ballots. That is what die-hard supporters are saying, I guess.

No, it's not what "die-hard supporters" are saying, and if they are, they do not have a copyright on the phrase, nor should anyone that is reasoning mail in balloting can result in significant fraud be demonized for saying it.
Similar incidents are popping up more often. Everyone should be concerned.
A someone with the power and influence of a president certainly should be demonized for making entirely false claims that lead Americans to doubt the integrity of elections. He is not even acting as a patriot. He puts himself before country; we've known that.
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Re: Trump Watch

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DWill wrote:
ant wrote:
DWill wrote:That incident needs to be investigated, of course. And so the conclusion is that Trump is justified in claiming that if he loses, it will be due to massive fraud with mail-in ballots. That is what die-hard supporters are saying, I guess.

No, it's not what "die-hard supporters" are saying, and if they are, they do not have a copyright on the phrase, nor should anyone that is reasoning mail in balloting can result in significant fraud be demonized for saying it.
Similar incidents are popping up more often. Everyone should be concerned.
A someone with the power and influence of a president certainly should be demonized for making entirely false claims that lead Americans to doubt the integrity of elections. He is not even acting as a patriot. He puts himself before country; we've known that.
Why shouldn't he bring to the forefront the obvious issues with mail-in ballots?
Issues exist. It is not some made up fantasy, nor should it be a taboo topic because a climate of desperation exists for the left.

The democrats are pretending there aren't any risks.
That is false. Whether you choose to admit it or not.
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Re: Trump Watch

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The mistake you're making is ignoring what Trump's claim actually is. It's that mail voting will produce massive fraud, not that mistakes have occurred or someone somewhere tried to manipulate results. You'll have problems of execution in every large-scale process, but to prove existence of a systemic problem you need evidence that neither Trump nor anyone else has provided. Studies have shown that the incidence of voting fraud is miniscule in relation to total number of votes cast, and mail voting has been with us for quite some time. Trump's tip-of-the-iceberg claim for mail voting problems is dishonest and demagogic.
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Re: Trump Watch

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ant wrote:a climate of desperation exists for the left.
I'm curious what you mean by that. It seemed obvious on Tuesday night which candidate was desperate, and obvious that his accusations that there will be fraud were motivated by desperation.

The polls are strongly signaling a victory for Biden, and quite possibly a Democratic Senate. Of course the election is still a month away and a lot could happen, but in the months and months since it became clear who the nominee would be, they haven't moved a lot. So where does this idea of a climate of desperation come from?
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Re: Trump Watch

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Harry Marks wrote:
ant wrote:a climate of desperation exists for the left.
I'm curious what you mean by that. It seemed obvious on Tuesday night which candidate was desperate, and obvious that his accusations that there will be fraud were motivated by desperation.

The polls are strongly signaling a victory for Biden, and quite possibly a Democratic Senate. Of course the election is still a month away and a lot could happen, but in the months and months since it became clear who the nominee would be, they haven't moved a lot. So where does this idea of a climate of desperation come from?

I'm not putting much faith in polls, considering what happened 4 years ago.


Fact check Biden's first debate, Harry.

Also, Biden was the first to interrupt that evening - a total of 3 straight times..
Trump was rude for the remainder.


Ben Shapiro said it best immediately after the debate.

Paraphrase:
I don't know who won the debate, all I know is that we all lost.


Good luck with your fandom of lesser evils.
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Re: Trump Watch

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ant wrote:I'm not putting much faith in polls, considering what happened 4 years ago.
Yeah, I'm still kind of traumatized by the surprise. There is some indication that a similar "come from behind" or "come out of nowhere" victory for Trump may be in the offing. In particular, older white males seem to be registering in much greater numbers than people expected, in the Rust Belt areas that gave Trump his upset win in the Electoral College in 2016. But there are also signs pointing the other way, and most important of all, nobody takes a Dem victory for granted, so even people like my brother-in-law (who tends to think Bernie Sanders is too conservative or panders to the moderates) are very clear that they don't want to see the same outcome again. He made the same mistake in 2000, and I think people catch on eventually.
ant wrote:Fact check Biden's first debate, Harry.
Well, there were certainly distortions and unfair attacks, but by and large he stayed within traditional bounds except with his quiet insults about "Why don't you just shut up?" and "this clown" and "he doesn't know how to do that" about taking turns.
ant wrote:Also, Biden was the first to interrupt that evening - a total of 3 straight times..
You might be right. I was watching for who interrupted during the other person's time, and I had the distinct impression that Trump did that first, but I could be wrong. I refuse to re-watch it to try to assess that. It seems obvious that Trump did not come prepared to play it straight and then got knocked off his game. His usual round of lies and viciousness seemed pretty thoroughly prepared.

And if Biden did stick the needle in just to throw Trump off, he should be ashamed of himself, but you kind of have to see that in some sense it worked. An awful lot of housewives who try to get their kids to have a semblance of politeness were stuck watching the leader of the free world beat the tar out of all their admonitions. And they are going to stay up at night thinking about someone with his finger on the nuclear button who is completely unable to govern his anger. Would anyone you know want a person with their 10-year-old's temperament ("You did it first!" "Did not!" "Did so!") managing the fate of humanity?
ant wrote:Trump was rude for the remainder.
You think? But really, it wasn't just the rudeness that got such a reaction of disgust. We all expect rudeness and other boundary violations from our Dear Leader. It was the lack of self-control that was disturbing. And, of course, the inability to condemn white supremacist terrorists. Either he has given some thought to what white supremacists mean for the country, in which case he is thoroughly evil, or he is just unable to see anything except "us and them" and he is thoroughly toxic in his dysfunctionality.

ant wrote:Ben Shapiro said it best immediately after the debate.
Paraphrase:
I don't know who won the debate, all I know is that we all lost.
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm a person in whom argumentativeness runs very strong, and I felt dragged into the mud. I never felt that way with, say, William F. Buckley or George Will.

I have some experience, as I have said before, with narcissistic personality disorder. They will do that to you. A little unfair dig here, a little shouting and blustering there, and pretty soon all you can think about is conflict. It's really horrible. That was one reason I really appreciated Biden's tactic of looking directly at the camera and appealing to the audience of voters. In general he did not do a good job of stepping out of the vortex of nastiness, but at those moments he gave a sense that yes, we can rise above this crap.
ant wrote:Good luck with your fandom of lesser evils.
LOL. Guilty, I guess. I don't really consider myself a fan. But hey, I was a fan of Bill Clinton for his ability to grasp and explain economic forces, and he turned out to be pretty dysfunctional (in a way that tons of politicians do, probably including Biden). Maybe Biden will turn out to be not much better than the one we have. But that's not how it looks to me now. Biden had no trouble at all, for example, saying "If I lose, that will settle it". He gets democracy. His opponent couldn't say it, and instead asked for his base to lurk at the polls like he lurked in the 2016 debates. With everybody watching, he undermined democracy.
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Re: Trump Watch

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I'm admittedly disposed to be suspicious of the Trump White House. Glad to say that it has handled well Trump's positive test and transfer to Walter Reed. The 18-second video Trump made before stepping onto Marine One was exactly the right thing to do, reassuring for the public. Politics as usual will be suspended for a while--almost, that is. There really isn't a reason for Nancy Pelosi to say she hopes that his illness will be a turning point towards seriousness about mask-wearing, etc. I hope it is, too, but for now that should not be said. All anyone needs to say is "get well."
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