• In total there are 27 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 27 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Trump Watch

A forum dedicated to friendly and civil conversations about domestic and global politics, history, and present-day events.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

Murmur wrote:
DWill wrote: "The only way we're going to lose this election is because it's rigged. Remember that." Donald Trump on 8/16/20.
That's a loathsome thing to say. Actually, just plain evil. Donald Trump is implicitly stating that he doesn't believe in a republican form of government, and that voting is irrelevant. "If I win, that's correct. If I lose, the election was rigged!" Dude, that's like African 3rd world dictator level shit. Here's the relevant video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X2hJtcEWzY
I like to compare the politics of the USA today with the transition from Republic to Empire in ancient Rome in the first and second centuries BC. An empire is structurally a military dictatorship. Trump is saying that the interests of the American Empire are those of the very rich.

Democracy is only acceptable for the Empire State view as long as it elects Trump. The ability to trick people to vote against their interests can only deliver that result for a short period, which is likely coming to an end this year. So I would not be surprised to see a future Pinochet/Allende dynamic emerge in the USA, as the majority come to support a polity that is perceived to conflict with the interests of the plutocrat class. Then the option of military coup comes into play. Military dictators on the model of the ancient Roman leaders Sulla, Marius, Caesar, Pompey, Crassus and Augustus will emerge to provide a veneer of legitimacy for a system similar to what we see now in Russia and China.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:
Murmur wrote:
DWill wrote: "The only way we're going to lose this election is because it's rigged. Remember that." Donald Trump on 8/16/20.
That's a loathsome thing to say. Actually, just plain evil. Donald Trump is implicitly stating that he doesn't believe in a republican form of government, and that voting is irrelevant. "If I win, that's correct. If I lose, the election was rigged!" Dude, that's like African 3rd world dictator level shit. Here's the relevant video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X2hJtcEWzY
I like to compare the politics of the USA today with the transition from Republic to Empire in ancient Rome in the first and second centuries BC. An empire is structurally a military dictatorship. Trump is saying that the interests of the American Empire are those of the very rich.

Democracy is only acceptable for the Empire State view as long as it elects Trump. The ability to trick people to vote against their interests can only deliver that result for a short period, which is likely coming to an end this year. So I would not be surprised to see a future Pinochet/Allende dynamic emerge in the USA, as the majority come to support a polity that is perceived to conflict with the interests of the plutocrat class. Then the option of military coup comes into play. Military dictators on the model of the ancient Roman leaders Sulla, Marius, Caesar, Pompey, Crassus and Augustus will emerge to provide a veneer of legitimacy for a system similar to what we see now in Russia and China.

Talking without actually knowing what it's like to live in the States.

I suppose Robert's US friends have told him we live in a near dictatorship.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

Harry wrote:

You can even make a case that the Trump initiative of moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv was a signal to the Middle East that the U.S. no longer had any interest in holding back Israel's territorial ambitions
This is speculative, lame, and without evidence.



On a much different note, Harry, aren't you a progressive Christian?

On your "Trump Watch" why didn't you mentioned the loss of Trump's brother recently? Or did I miss it.
You comment enough on him and his character.. Why wouldn't you, as a Christian, offer condolences for his recent loss?

We have many, many differences on this little planet we live on, but at our deepest core we all hurt and grieve nearly the same as our friends and those we might very well dislike intensely.

Where's the empathy in your religion?
Has it somehow been justifiably washed away?
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

ant wrote: Talking without actually knowing what it's like to live in the States.

I suppose Robert's US friends have told him we live in a near dictatorship.
The point here is that Trump has signaled a possibility of rejecting the democratic process by saying the only way he could lose the election would be through fraud by his opponents. That sets up the clear prospect of promoting a mass campaign to regard a Biden government as illegitimate.

The intense polarisation of culture and politics in the USA is well known to everyone around the world. I do follow US politics fairly closely, so the implication that only people who live in America can have a reasonable view is not justified.

On the Rome timeline, the US has decades before it descends into military dictatorship, but that is the trajectory. Trump is preparing the way with baseless comments like this one about his opponents rigging elections. In fact the main rigging is by Republicans who systematically prevent Democrat supporters from voting.

Spending trillions of public money on weaponry certainly creates the conditions for a future dictatorship, in the event that a future democratically elected US government decides to confront the military-industrial complex by refusing to pay for it at the current scale.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

ant wrote: On a much different note, Harry, aren't you a progressive Christian?

On your "Trump Watch" why didn't you mentioned the loss of Trump's brother recently? Or did I miss it.
You comment enough on him and his character.. Why wouldn't you, as a Christian, offer condolences for his recent loss?

We have many, many differences on this little planet we live on, but at our deepest core we all hurt and grieve nearly the same as our friends and those we might very well dislike intensely.

Where's the empathy in your religion?
Has it somehow been justifiably washed away?
That is simply uncalled for, ant. You impugned his faith based on his not making a special point of mentioning, in a thread clearly meant to talk about Trump as president, Robert Trump's death. Do you pay attention at all to what Harry Marks says on BT? I have to think that if you did you would never accuse him of a lack of empathy, and surely not on this flimsiest of pretexts.
User avatar
Murmur
Internet Sage
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:13 pm
8
Location: Tarrytown, NY, USA
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 128 times
Gender:
Ukraine

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

ant wrote: On a much different note, Harry, aren't you a progressive Christian?

On your "Trump Watch" why didn't you mentioned the loss of Trump's brother recently? Or did I miss it.
You comment enough on him and his character.. Why wouldn't you, as a Christian, offer condolences for his recent loss?

We have many, many differences on this little planet we live on, but at our deepest core we all hurt and grieve nearly the same as our friends and those we might very well dislike intensely.

Where's the empathy in your religion?
Has it somehow been justifiably washed away?
What the Hell relevance does that have to do with anything? Do you require Christians to say something every single time someone dies?
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

ant wrote: On your "Trump Watch" why didn't you mentioned the loss of Trump's brother recently? Or did I miss it.
You comment enough on him and his character.. Why wouldn't you, as a Christian, offer condolences for his recent loss?

We have many, many differences on this little planet we live on, but at our deepest core we all hurt and grieve nearly the same as our friends and those we might very well dislike intensely.

Where's the empathy in your religion?
Has it somehow been justifiably washed away?
To state the obvious, you did not offer condolences yourself, at least, as far as I know.

I think you are trying to make a point about the Trump Watch theme, and I will just clarify that my reason for starting it is that Trump is intentionally threatening democracy, and lots of people are cozying up to that behind a smokescreen of deflection and outright lies. So I think it is a good idea to set out in a written record the repeated attacks. A lot of Republicans want to have it both ways - the racist white flight to the suburbs is a defense of decency and civilization, and being nice is for losers. That kind of incoherence, which has been known as "staying on message" for 20 years now, at least, thrives when nobody gets the facts out to take a look at them.

I think you have made an effort to offer the same scrutiny for Biden. He has certainly stood in the schoolhouse door himself, and failed women when push came to shove. If the Republican party was offering a decent alternative, like, say, McCain or Romney, I would give serious consideration to whether I thought they were less of a problem. But I would still come out for Biden, I suspect, because I do prefer empathy over "toughness" when it comes to making our laws and our policies. Biden is a politician, and he will win or lose as one, so he doesn't go for wild-eyed theory over pragmatic accommodation. But he has the heart to know that children not getting a good education is a tragedy no matter what color they are. And a mind unwarped by fear, clear enough to see that the future of our country requires that we face up to the tasks that are in front of us.

That said, let me address the point about condolences to Mr. Trump, because it's an interesting one. First, let me say I am learning, in a men's group mostly in their 70s and 80s, that I am not very good about condolences to strangers. I am still getting to know them, and can barely tell Skip from Ben, and they are facing the trials of old age together (which I will be in the middle of soon enough). So I devoutly pray that my tepid formalities do not sting, and that they take comfort from the heartfelt sympathy of the guys they have been friends with for 20, 30 and 40 years. If I am not living up to my social obligations, I am sorry about that, but I expect that what really matters in condolences is true accompaniment, the ability to feel some of the loss.

Trump's loss sort of takes that dynamic totally off the normal human scale. First of all, we know that he showed no sorrow or sympathy at the time of a previous brother's death, barely visiting in the hospital and effectively dusting the guy off his shoulders like so much dandruff. Now, I don't really want to get told about the private affairs of public figures, but that representation fits my experience with narcissists quite well. I believe he has suffered a real loss, but it seems he comes from a family in which loss is not something you let yourself be vulnerable enough to feel.

I feel a lot of pity for Trump, and even a certain amount of empathy. But it isn't for the ordinary sorrows that we all face, since loving someone means being hurt when they die. I feel sorry for the guy every day, for having to live in his skin. Having to avoid his failings by trying to prop up a fantasy version of himself, every day and every hour. We all have failings. Some of us still haven't figured out that being human is a worthy thing in itself, and that the pain that life brings is not made any lighter by putting up a front of invulnerability.

What does make it lighter is company. I hope Trump has somebody he can let down his guard with, and share his sorrow with. That somebody is certainly not me. Would my condolences make any difference, on the weird off chance that they came to his attention? I seriously doubt it.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

DWill wrote:
ant wrote: On a much different note, Harry, aren't you a progressive Christian?

On your "Trump Watch" why didn't you mentioned the loss of Trump's brother recently? Or did I miss it.
You comment enough on him and his character.. Why wouldn't you, as a Christian, offer condolences for his recent loss?

We have many, many differences on this little planet we live on, but at our deepest core we all hurt and grieve nearly the same as our friends and those we might very well dislike intensely.

Where's the empathy in your religion?
Has it somehow been justifiably washed away?
That is simply uncalled for, ant. You impugned his faith based on his not making a special point of mentioning, in a thread clearly meant to talk about Trump as president, Robert Trump's death. Do you pay attention at all to what Harry Marks says on BT? I have to think that if you did you would never accuse him of a lack of empathy, and surely not on this flimsiest of pretexts.

Knowing that your reply here is not entirely representative of all the people on BT, I have to say that I reject any self righteous indignation responsive to what I've asked Harry as it relates to his religion.

Religion, most specifically Christianity and its tenets, have been called into question (and attacked) countless times here.
Now all of a sudden its taboo?

I'm not buying it.

Most all of you have taken your shots at "religious" people at one time or another. Your pass is not exclusive and you aren't going to stone me for it just because you've found something (or someone) more detestable than religion (Trump).

What's a "Trump Watch" anyway?
I too am watching Trump. The death of his brother was headline news.
I'm guessing a Trump Watch does not include the very human side of his life.

I'm appalled that people of religion can ignore suffering in the name of politics.

I called it out.
That's tough if it ruffled your feathers.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

Harry wrote:

To state the obvious, you did not offer condolences yourself, at least, as far as I know.
Tu quoque from a Christian?

Sorry, but I'm really surprised at how much Christianity has "progressed."
Trump's loss sort of takes that dynamic totally off the normal human scale. First of all, we know that he showed no sorrow or sympathy at the time of a previous brother's death,
Why do you seem to expect that grief displayed openly is the only grief that should be recognized?
People grieve in different ways. And why are you being so judgmental here? Who has granted you authority to carry a "human scale" to determine who is human and who might be less human? That is quite chilling and totally antithetical to Love, the bedrock of Christianity.
Or has that changed too, Harry?

As I've said here before on BT, I attended a private Christian school from K through 12. I am very familiar with the tenets of Christianity.

First, let me say I am learning, in a men's group mostly in their 70s and 80s, that I am not very good about condolences to strangers
For a man of faith you have a very callous tone about one particular human being that no one but I can recognize because I am not in your Trump Is Bad bubble.
What the old men pointed out to you is wise and telling.

Generally speaking, I fear the day when politics has completely replaced religion.

Thanks for the honest reply.
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: Trump Watch

Unread post

ant wrote:Why do you seem to expect that grief displayed openly is the only grief that should be recognized?
People grieve in different ways.
I'm quite satisfied that the accounts of Trump's treatment of his brother, Fred, Jr, by daughter Mary Trump are close enough to an accurate picture that we can draw conclusions from them. The different way that Donald dealt with his grief:
Wikipedia wrote:"In 1999, just after Fred Sr.'s funeral, Fred III's son was born with cerebral palsy. The Trump family agreed to pay for the child's medical expenses. Fred Sr.'s will was revealed, which Donald Trump helped write. The will mandated that Fred Jr., and by extension his children, Fred III and Mary, would be left out from receiving most of the inheritance, which amounted to over $20 million.[c] Fred III and Mary filed a lawsuit, alleging that Fred Jr.'s siblings, including Donald, used "undue influence" on a dementia-addled Fred Sr. to cut them out of the inheritance. Donald Trump reacted by removing the medical benefits for Fred III's infant son"
from Wikipedia on Trump's family.
ant wrote:And why are you being so judgmental here? Who has granted you authority to carry a "human scale" to determine who is human and who might be less human? That is quite chilling and totally antithetical to Love, the bedrock of Christianity.
Or has that changed too, Harry?
That's a question much more relevant to faith. I am currently reading a good book, "Unclean" by Dr. Richard Beck, about how the dynamics of moral condemnation lead Christianity to ignore key principles of the faith. He starts out where Jonathan Haidt left off, looking at the tensions between different core moral impulses. Judgmentalism is a serious danger. The dynamic involves reinforcing our own sense of worth, our avoidance of the unclean, by denigrating someone else.

There is no question in my mind that Trump has made himself what Beck calls a "monster", a symbol of the lowness that liberals want to feel better than, whose scapegoat function is obscured by the threat it poses. Racism and white supremacy are intentionally monstrous - these days they wave their guns and glory in it. So the antidote for the faithful, to some extent at least, is to use reason to separate the threat from the judgment. I don't get any feelings of status from being better than Trump the con-man and pathological liar. I have my own issues, and grace is an option even for con-men and pathological liars. But I do recognize that in our age of targeted internet advertising and post-truth opinionating, of QAnon one might say, that Trump represents a real threat to critically important social structures of democracy. And it would hardly be loving to ignore that, since I care about lots of people and not just poor Donny.

What the old men pointed out to you is wise and telling.
Nobody pointed it out to me, Ant. I just ran up against it.
Thanks for the honest reply.
I'm trying. There is no salvation without honesty.
Last edited by Harry Marks on Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply

Return to “Current Events & History”