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Orwellian liberalism 
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
So when Geo calls my expressions about some of what's been happening in our nation "bullshit" that's not abusive?.

I don't recall what I said, but apologize if I came on too strong.


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Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:02 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
geo wrote:
Most of our Confederate monuments are essentially propaganda anyway. They were erected in the 1910s-1950s during a resurgence of race riots and civil unrest in our country and while some states were expanding Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans.

So the purpose was to dominate the public square with racist attitudes that gave the finger to federal efforts to promote equality of opportunity.

Leaving such political statues in place serves to endorse the oppressive mentality that erected them.

Statues of explorers and discoverers are different in my view, since they honour a legacy that remains legitimate in the eyes of the mainstream state, despite the dispossession of indigenous people they caused.


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Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:48 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
geo wrote:
ant wrote:
So when Geo calls my expressions about some of what's been happening in our nation "bullshit" that's not abusive?.

I don't recall what I said, but apologize if I came on too strong.



It's okay, Geo.. No apology necessary. Politics often comes with a lot of heat. I get that.

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Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:19 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Chris Cuomo of left wing CNN fame graduated from Yale, has a JD from Fordham U.

He demanded someone show him where it says protests must be peaceful.


I'm not a graduate of Yale, but I too can tell him it says it in The First Amendment

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances


What a hack



Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:57 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
Chris Cuomo of left wing CNN fame graduated from Yale, has a JD from Fordham U.

He demanded someone show him where it says protests must be peaceful.


I'm not a graduate of Yale, but I too can tell him it says it in The First Amendment

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances


What a hack

Might be that you make good point, but I wish you'd included the clip or transcript of what he said.



Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:58 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
https://thewashingtonsentinel.com/cnns- ... ots-video/


scroll down a bit and play the embedded video clip.


This was all over the national news as well when it happened.

Just what exactly are they teaching their students at Yale?



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Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
DWill wrote:
Ant, you're too angry about all of this to engage constructively right now. You're becoming abusive.



So when Geo calls my expressions about some of what's been happening in our nation "bullshit" that's not abusive?
That's not an angry tone?
That wasn't too long ago.. Got look it up.
Why didn't you call that abuse?

Go ahead and call for me to be banned. I don't care.
Or now that LanDroid is upset and I hurt his feelings with my political views he can censor me himself. He's a moderator.
To tell you the truth it won't surprise me in the least.

All I can say is, well, two things. On the general level, it's possible that I feel freer in calling you out than I do with geo. Maybe that's due to some tribalism, and it isn't right of me. Regarding specifics, if you call something I say 'bullshit,' I won't like it, but I'm not likely to take it very personally. If you make a global judgment by calling me dumb and stupid, that feels a lot different.

Look, you have a different--and perhaps clearer--perspective on the issues and events we've been talking about. I live in a tiny town and come from a privileged background. What do I really know, on a deeper level, about race, poverty, discrimination, and rage? I'm trying to find the right path between the two poles, and sometimes I feel I'm just ping-ponging. What do you think I should do? I'm open to suggestions.



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Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:05 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Leftist CHAZ residents choke out Christian man


Quote:
Citizens, or perhaps private police, of The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone were caught on video physically removing a man preaching tenants of Christianity, putting him in a choke hold, taking him to the ground, and then dragging him along the ground.



https://nationalfile.com/video-chaz-res ... wn-square/


We are seeing the vile and putrid lawlessness of left wing zealots who will resort to the same murderous tactics of previous monsters like Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other tyrants.


Truth and falsity aside. religion helps civilize human beings in spite of any tu quoque rebuttals
Without it everything is permissible.



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Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:30 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
DWill wrote:
]As for tearing down--destroying--the statues, if we decry such vandalism, we might think of how we react to pictures of newly liberated people in the former Soviet Union toppling images of Stalin. How many of us point disapproving fingers at that?


Are you comparing the current state of America as being the same as The Soviet Union under Stalin?

No, a historical analogy is probably never exact, but the point here is about dead, previous leaders, anyway, not current ones. I mean that the two situations have enough similarity that we might pause to analyze our reaction if we cheer on the East Europeans in tearing down statues of their past oppressors, while condemning similar acts here. Shouldn't there be more consistency--at the least, recognizing the validity of the resentment against Confederate heroes, even if disapproving the destruction of the images?

Quote:
That we still nationally honor slavery and did not ever abolish it?

The Confederate statues represent the South's successful overturning of reforms during Reconstruction, the re-establishment of white supremacy by law and custom in the South.

Quote:
That we should cheer the violence being committed against innocents because we are living in a communist regime?

I thought the topic was statues.

Quote:
That we really did not have courts of law, or any lawful justice prior to Floyd?

That we do not have prisons/jails with people who have gone through a judicial processes that although not full proof, is better than anything we have seen in modern history to date, but instead have gulags filled with innocents?

This is not the same "picture"
What an odd thing to say.

Again, that is not about statues, so I wasn't pointing to any of that in the comment you quoted. But on the topic of justice, our modern history has not been a steady march of progress, as we can see in the massive growth of incarceration, which has affected African Americans disproportionately.
Quote:
Here is what Martin Luther King Jr said about violence as a path to justice
Quote:
Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones. Violence is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding: it seeks to annihilate rather than convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends up defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.

Anyone who does not condemn this ongoing violence is complicit.

Have you paid enough attention to the leaders of the demonstrations who plead for those bent on violence to stay away? Or to the fact that, in aggregate, the protests have been peaceful?



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Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:17 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
geo wrote:
There are good arguments on both sides—for taking down the statues because they are symbols of oppression, and for leaving them in place as objects d’history of race relations in our nation.


Grūtas Park (unofficially known as Stalin's World) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%ABtas_Park in Lithuania has a collection of Soviet era statues, brought together to help people reflect on why they were originally put in place as symbols of imperial oppression. A similar park in Moscow is known as the Fallen Monument Park - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Monument_Park

I don't think anyone should suggest US slavery was anywhere near as bad as the extreme totalitarianism of communist Russia, but the motivations of building statues do bear comparison. I think that monuments celebrating slavery - which includes statues of Confederate leaders and ten commandment sculptures - should be taken out of public places and collected together so that people can examine what they mean - "objects d’history of race relations in our nation".

On the Ten Commandments, my view is that the most important commandment from the point of view of people who celebrate them most loudly is from the tenth - thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's slave.


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Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:40 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Time Magazine is shameless:

June 10, 2020

"Protest is a Profound Public Health Intervention - Why so Many Doctors Are Supporting Protests in The Middle of The Covid19 Pandemic"

https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/



June 13, 2020

"Hundreds of Far-Right Right Protesters Defy Covid19 Restrictions to Demonstrate in London"

https://time.com/5853234/far-right-prot ... es-london/


This is shameless left wing communist propaganda. It is twisted and blatant.

What a horrible evil the media has become. They are a tool for the left with no credibility left.



Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:36 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Robert Tulip wrote:
I don't think anyone should suggest US slavery was anywhere near as bad as the extreme totalitarianism of communist Russia, but the motivations of building statues do bear comparison. I think that monuments celebrating slavery - which includes statues of Confederate leaders and ten commandment sculptures - should be taken out of public places and collected together so that people can examine what they mean - "objects d’history of race relations in our nation".

Have to disagree with you here, Robert. Granted, it's very hard to compare Holocaust-like situations, and slavery wasn't invented in America, but in my mind the 250-year history of American slavery (both Native American and African) compares in horror to Soviet totalitarianism.

What defenders of the Confederate statues will tell you is that the statues celebrate heritage. These defenders have worked out in their minds a Southern cause in which slavery wasn't the reason impelling them to leave the union--it was states rights and northern oppression. They were fighting for freedom from oppressors in exactly the same way that patriots 75 years earlier fought British oppressors. That justification is revisionistic. If it was indeed states rights that the South fought for, there can't be much question that holding slaves and expanding slavery into the territories was the central right on their minds.



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Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:48 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
Time Magazine is shameless:

June 10, 2020

"Protest is a Profound Public Health Intervention - Why so Many Doctors Are Supporting Protests in The Middle of The Covid19 Pandemic"

https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/



June 13, 2020

"Hundreds of Far-Right Right Protesters Defy Covid19 Restrictions to Demonstrate in London"

https://time.com/5853234/far-right-prot ... es-london/


This is shameless left wing communist propaganda. It is twisted and blatant.

What a horrible evil the media has become. They are a tool for the left with no credibility left.

I have to totally disagree with you on your commie-calling, and I largely disagree on the specifics of these articles. Reading a little carefully, we can see that Time isn't editorializing. This is called reporting. In the second article, it's especially clear that the reporter has used examples from both the left and right sides to illustrate excited people disregarding virus restrictions. The bias I do see is in the editors' choice of headline in that article. In the first article title, Time magazine isn't claiming that protest is a public health intervention. Then the article itself reports on the views of part of the medical community.



Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:29 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Thomas Jefferson statue torn down at high school

https://www.newser.com/story/292253/tho ... moval.html


The left will not be able to reign in their historically illiterate and violent fascist ideological offspring.



I guarantee it.


By the way,

The prophet Mohammed owned slaves..
When will the left support tearing down and banning any monuments or writings that praise him?

Oh, that's right -- the left only attacks Christianity.


Again, remember Orwell's words... "nothing exists except an endless present"



While we are at it, let's remember some of Ronald Reagan's words:

Quote:
If fascism ever comes to America it will come in the name of liberalism



Last edited by ant on Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:39 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
You've said some confusing things lately about race and racism, ant. Now are you saying that statues of Confederate generals or slave owners have no connection to racism? Or is it simply the tearing down that you're against?



Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:37 pm
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