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Minneapolis burns for 3 days 
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
ant wrote:
Which political ideology is more likely to burn down St John's Church, which is happening at this very moment - far right or far left?

This isn't rocket science, my friend.


And, yet, the rioting and vandalism taking place across the U.S. is rooted in many causes. Trying to assign blame—to the left or the right—is rather simplistic and not very informative. Sorry.

Certainly ANTIFA is militant, left-wing, anti-fascist political activist movement, but the movement has been widely criticized by both parties. And point in fact, the rioters on the ground are not organized under any one umbrella. There are ANTIFA people out there and there are also right-wing white supremacists. You could make a more salient argument that youth is the driving motivation behind these acts of violence, but that wouldn't be very informative either.

Quote:
Protests are usually triggered by a social injustice, whether that is an injustice towards an individual or a group. As a protest gets larger, there is an increased chance that there will be a handful of people resorting to violence and destruction. This is just a fact of our society-- there are always a small number of people for which antisocial behavior is the norm.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ne-rioting

But if you want to blame liberals, go right ahead.


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Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:31 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Quote:
But if you want to blame liberals, go right ahead.



I will

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fires.html

Really? Burning down a police headquarters is a justified response?


(author left wing professor from Northwestern University)


Keep denying this anarchist promotion of violence is not a leftist full time hobby



Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:36 pm
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
More justification of violence by the left.

From Mother Jones (undisputed a left wing media outlet)

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... mmer-2020/


liberals are continually whipped up by left wing media and academia to respond violently.
It's not even a disputable accusation..


The political bias that exists in small left wing online community bubbles, and large platforms like Twitter are completely silent on what is taking place throughout the country.
Most may not be condoning the violence but they certainly are not publicly CONDEMNING it either.


PROVE ME WRONG AND CONDEMN LEFT WING MEDIA FOR PUBLISHING THE JUSTIFICATION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST INNOCENTS AS A PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE FOR WHAT ONE STUPID IDIOT COP DID.

I am waiting.



Last edited by ant on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Attorney General Barr: Antifa Rioters Will Be Treated as Domestic Terrorists
thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/attorney-g ... errorists/

I read that about 20,000 have been arrested nationwide. As domestic terrorists, for starters, they could lose all of their property. The cost of hiring lawyers to win it back would probably be more than the property's worth.

How the USA PATRIOT Act redefines "Domestic Terrorism"
"Section 806 amended the civil asset forfeiture statute to authorize the government to seize and forfeit: all assets, foreign or domestic of any individual, entity, or organization engaged in planning or perpetrating any act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States. ... The government can seize and/or freeze the assets on the mere assertion that there is probable cause to believe that the assets were involved in domestic terrorism. The assets are seized before a person is given a hearing, and often without notice...."
aclu.org/other/how-usa-patriot-act-rede ... -terrorism

The USA PATRIOT Act may be the most egregious piece of federal legislation the country has ever seen. But it's the law, and it might be used now to do some VERY harsh things. The 20,000 in custody could have their citizenship stripped from them. Should they be allowed to keep their citizenship?

Richmond Rioters Torched Home with Children inside Then Blocked Fire Department
thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/pure-evil- ... ent-video/

Minnesota Governor’s Daughter Was Tweeting Out Intel to Violent Looters and Rioters, Just Like Ilhan Omar’s Daughter Isra Hirsi
thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/breaking-e ... sra-hirsi/

Image

EDIT: Antifa is an umbrella organization with about 30 or so organizations under it. The ACLU comes to mind. I expect the 20,000 rioters had their electronic devices confiscated upon arrest, and law enforcement will now analyze the data to follow the insurrectionists' networks. Under the Patriot Act, SUSPICION of terrorism is enough to trigger arrest. And suspected terrorists have no constitutionally-protected rights. You can be "disappeared," legally, according to the Act. You can be taken to a black-site prison and be subjected to "enhanced interrogation" every day for the rest of your life. And you are not guaranteed a trial. You lose your citizenship and, as a stateless person, you have no rights at all. That's the Patriot Act. We railed against it for ten years after it was passed, but nobody listened. If the Atty General employs the Patriot Act to pursue the rioters, then those cases will not necessarily be tried in open court.


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Last edited by KindaSkolarly on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
ant wrote:
I think we all were united and appalled by the brutality and inhumanity we all witnessed.

I think so too.

ant wrote:
The left can't control their Frankenstein monster at the moment.
And leftist leadership has been totally impotent.
Now that's an interesting idea. So is the right responsible to control Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer, or the Charlottesville marchers, or the guy who used his car to kill Heather Heyer? As far as I know, no lives have been lost as a result of the George Floyd reaction riots. Is the right responsible to stop lynchers? Is the right responsible to stop the police from killing people over minor infractions? That is, in fact, a very interesting proposition. Waco, Idaho, Cliven Bundy? Any nasty character on the right is the responsibility of the entire right?

Doesn't sound too well thought out to me.

ant wrote:
A big part of the problem within law enforcement and these bad apples who show their ugly head every so often is "the code of silence" systemic to the institution. We need good cops to call out bad cops before incidents like this happen. I'm fairly certain this last cop has a history of bad conduct that may or may not have been documented.
True, but three of the cops kneeled on Floyd. I'm betting none of the cops had ever practiced de-escalation. The code of silence is there, undoubtedly because no one wants the kind of internal tension that we have seen in the military, with fragging of officers in Vietnam and Edward Gallagher threatening his fellow soldiers over their efforts to restrain his wanton lethality. So what was Trump's response? He reversed the ouster of Gallagher over war crimes.

So how, exactly, is the code of silence going to end if the right wing continues to pose as tough guys and side with war crimes? The same thing has been happening in police forces around the nation. A cop is rarely held responsible for using lethal force out of adrenaline and contempt. The right wing considers killing scary people to be their job, and of course people of color are much scarier than white people. Every white juror knows that.



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Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:35 pm
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Harry Marks wrote:
As far as I know, no lives have been lost as a result of the George Floyd reaction riots.


And so, also like clockwork, there are now deaths (four, I think I read) from the riots. I feel like our country is caught in one of those endless idiot civil wars, like Colombia had, and Sri Lanka had, and Chechnya had, and Yemen has. The right wing provokes the poor with violence and starves them of resources because they are not worthy, the poor respond with desperation, and their foolishness provides the excuse to oppress them even more. Neither worldview is much interested in seeing their way out, and people who don't think of force as the most important response to crime are not interested in being on the police force.

And the billionaires who manipulate white fragility to get their tax cuts can just sit back and laugh at what a good job they are doing.



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Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:14 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
ant wrote:
. . . PROVE ME WRONG AND CONDEMN LEFT WING MEDIA FOR PUBLISHING THE JUSTIFICATION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST INNOCENTS AS A PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE FOR WHAT ONE STUPID IDIOT COP DID.

I am waiting.


I have to say, this is one of your more cringeworthy posts because it trivializes the angst and pain being felt in America right now. The George Floyd murder is only the latest in a long legacy of violence and entrenched racism blighting our news cycle for years and years, starting long before Colin Kaepernick began kneeling during football games.

Most recently, we’ve learned about Ahmaud Arbery, the black guy hunted down and shot several times by two white guys in a pickup truck. And remember Breonna Taylor, who was sleeping in her Louisville, Kentucky, apartment when cops executed a no-knock search warrant and barged into her home?

The one that still haunts me is the shooting of Walter Scott in 2015. I wish I had never seen that video.

Now . . . George Floyd.

So, yes, perhaps this is a proportional response to systemic racism and violence against blacks that never seems to stop. I thank you though for the Mother Jones article, which mentions a song by Mos Def . . .

Why did one straw break the camel's back?
Here's the secret
The million other straws underneath it
It's all mathematics


https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... mmer-2020/


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Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:12 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Quote:
I have to say, this is one of your more cringeworthy posts because it trivializes the angst and pain being felt in America right now.



Looting, vandalizing, assaulting, acts of arson, etc are not expressions of angst and pain. They are the irrational actions of barbarians.
To sweep aside such acts at a time like this is the equivalent of promoting thugmanship.
It is despicable and deplorable of you to do. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but your political ideology does not allow forthat.

If you had had your property vandalized ( I have - I own commercial property) you might feel differently.

I abhor violence in any form.. it is never justified and is counterproductive. Read some Gandhi instead of Che Guevara

"An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind"

Again, you will not overtly condemn the violence that is occurring against innocent people that had nothing to do with the Floyd tragedy.
It is brazenly cowardly of you.


Come over to downtown LA and help clean up the mess your lawless children have committed.
I will be a part of that because interpreting events ( ie "this is angst.. this is grief, this systemic) is not nearly as effective as rolling up your sleeves and doing something about it.
Volunteers started yesterday.

I will pay for your airfare and hotel.
How about it?



Last edited by ant on Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:58 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Since everyone's favorite retort seems to be a tu quoque fallacy, I'll play along.

What did Obama/Biden specifically do in 8 years to help quash systemic racism?

What progress was made prior to Trump?

Were blacks better off?

Were hispanics better off?

Was there less police brutality?

Was there less racism?

Were there less cages at the border?



Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
America has now seen how dangerous leftists are. Leftists have no future in elected politics, so they'll continue to grab for power through violence. If Trump and the Atty General declare Antifa (with its dozens of member groups) to be domestic terrorists, then police and military will be free to open fire on the terrorist hordes. That may be coming pretty quickly.

And this is interesting:

Minneapolis police rendered 44 people unconscious with neck restraints in five years
(So, the killer cop was using a restraint technique that the mayor approved of?)
nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-po ... s-n1220416

Image

“I Honor Her. She is Such a Good Human Being” – Mayor De Blasio Responds to His Daughter’s Arrest at Weekend Protests
thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/must-see-e ... organized/

Image

Mysterious Stacks of Bricks Are Being Delivered to Numerous US Cities – More Evidence Riots Are Organized!
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/0 ... organized/

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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
As usual, it is worth looking up the source of a KindaSkolarly post before taking it seriously.

Table 14 of the report cited, the basis for the graph shown about "interracial crime" tells a rather different story. It gives the percentages of crimes against various groups broken down by the race of the perpetrator.

Of violent crimes on white victims, 15% are by black offenders. It may be indicative of something that this is higher than the percentage of black people in the population, but it is not much out of line with those percentages. Most important to note is that the table KS has copied in looks at absolute numbers, rather than overall breakdown. Since there are many more white people, there are many more white victims, and so it looks like this "interracial violence" is a big category. In reality it is practically a simple statistical reflection of population (and money?).

Of violent crimes on black victims, only 10% are by white offenders. That is much smaller than the white percentage of the population, but it likely has something to do with the likelihood of making money by pointing a gun at a black person, as opposed to pointing a gun at a white person. The comparison is unlikely to reflect racial animus, even though avoidance and fear are significant factors in shaping it. After 250 years of white Americans setting up systems that would keep black people vulnerable and poor, much less likely to have access to good jobs and wealth-building real estate investments, is anybody really surprised that white people are more likely to be targets of "interracial" crime? Which raises the question of why someone wants to underline that comparison as if "interracial" violence is a process we all want to be watching.

And so we have to ask ourselves what comparison is implied by the cartoon focus on the media. First, I am not familiar with a lot of emphasis on "white on black" violent crime. There are stories about violent crime, but most of them don't worry about the race involved, for good reason. What the media focus on are stories that reveal something about power structures and the way people use them. Lynching a black man for jogging in white neigbhorhoods is a pretty revealing incident. Being able to get away with it unless outsiders step in is even more revealing. Normally when someone is shot, the people who shoot them are held responsible, and pursuing the person before pushing a confrontation is an aggravating factor not an exculpatory factor. But if it's Trayvon Martin or Ahmaud Abery, the white presumptions of guilt kick in, and power structures are revealed to be something other than objective. Which is what all the fuss is about.

Since today's news features a number of stories of journalists being targeted by the police, we are faced with questions about whether the police tend to see things the way KS does. Why would the police tend to think the media are intentionally distorting matters? Why would the same police (in many cases it is literally the same individuals targeting journalists and casually killing black people) feel that they are the victims of information while also feeling that they don't need to concern themselves with the death of someone they are subduing?

Not all the answers are about racism in the police force. Some of them are about the lack of opportunities and the desperation that breed crime in communities of color. About racism in the population, in other words. Some of them are about chaotic family lives, created by traumatized culture and by lack of opportunities. Some of them are about the police being put on the front lines where white people hope they can continue not to concern themselves about parts of the population who are deliberately excluded.

The New York Times had an interesting article today about the way the Twin Cities metro area set out decades ago to desegregate the whole area, providing affordable housing in the suburbs for example.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opin ... ation.html
But school desegregation and low-income housing in the suburbs fell by the wayside under the pressure of continued political resistance, and the area has segregated itself. Now there is the kind of mutual mistrust that led to the killings of George Floyd and Philando Castile. Police who feel more like occupiers than members of the community.

And many police officers don't want anyone watching what they do about it. My concern is not so much what the police do, though in many cases it is evil. My concern is why we are satisfied to let our country go down this road of segregation.



Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:28 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Still no condemnation of violence from the liberals/progressives on Booktalk?
Might I have missed it?

This goes to the essence of liberal extremism itself.

Having said that, my type of liberalism supports your right to vocalize your ideology, even in its most unethical, immoral formulation, short of encouraging direct harm or violence to particular person(s). That would be criminal.

Excuse the source, but more justification/encouragement by the left to destroy property is contained in it.
NYT reporter says destroying property (which can be replaced) is not violence:

https://hannity.com/media-room/ny-times ... socialflow

This is a chickenshit thing to say and could only be said by someone who has not had their property destroyed by a mob or protesters.


Mayor de Blasio allowed NYC to be looted and trashed with his stand down orders to NYPD.
A democrat.
He will be history soon. The people who work and have rightfully earned what is theirs will make that happen.


The children of liberalism cannot keep from destroying others and themselves in the process.



Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:44 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
Harry wrote:

Quote:
My concern is not so much what the police do, though in many cases it is evil



Above is an accusation made without evidence to back it up

What amount is "many cases"?

Can you provide some data to add context for that claim, please?

How many peaceful interactions take place annually between police officers and citizens and how many end up in death and or violence?

Just give me the data to look at and skip the preambles, please. No offense, I just want the data to look at myself.



Last edited by ant on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:49 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
ant wrote:
Still no condemnation of violence from the liberals/progressives on Booktalk?
Might I have missed it?

This goes to the essence of liberal extremism itself.


This is a rather childish game you're playing, Ant. You issue a challenge, based on your own criteria for success/failure, and when no one takes the bait, you declare victory by default.

Here's why I have chosen not to respond to any of your recent posts. Because there's simply no common ground. Almost everything you rant about relies on false dichotomies and strawman sort of thinking. It would take too much time to unpack it all.

I do condemn violence and looting, but I don't feel the need to bray about it on an internet forum. For that matter, I'm opposed to murder and rape too. Do I really need to say it?

You don't make a good case for any of your assertions, which are mostly just displays of cheap moral outrage against the BIG Bad Left, the kind that are already everywhere on internet forums and social media. If I wanted to hear that sort of thing I could just turn on FoxNews. But I don't. I'd rather tune out.

Have a nice day.


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Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:59 am
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Post Re: Minneapolis burns for 3 days
ant wrote:
Still no condemnation of violence from the liberals/progressives on Booktalk?
Might I have missed it?
I have condemned the violence of the riots, as have others here (who are not necessarily liberals like myself), and I will be happy to do it again. Destroying property, like attacking people, is wrong and evil and stupid. I don't let my children or the people I teach get away with it, and neither should our society.

What you called for was a denunciation of media coverage. Sorry, that is a different kettle of fish. It did not seem to me that the condemnation of coverage that you were asking for was actually appropriate (not that I have watched every minute of it, but I have seen enough to know that on balance they are covering what happens). I am happy to condemn Tucker Carlson for "what about civilization?" as a response to Derek Chauvin's indictment for the murder of George Floyd. We have had way too much of justifying murder because it is murder of "them". Pointing out our system of violence against the poor and the people of color, when massive demonstrations have gotten out of hand, is a judgement call I am not willing to second-guess in the same way.

ant wrote:
This goes to the essence of liberal extremism itself.
Well, if it was my business that had been trashed I might feel that liberalism is "extremism", but it wasn't. On the other hand, my "business" of educating has been slowly strangled by people who feel that paying taxes is for other people's kids. Sometimes your take on an issue depends on what you hope for and what you have invested in.

ant wrote:
Excuse the source, but more justification/encouragement by the left to destroy property is contained in it.

I was pretty impressed by the calls from George Floyd's family not to engage in looting or other violence. And it seems to have gotten some positive response, though it may be too early to tell. I am pretty impressed by mayors and police chiefs who have knelt or linked arms with demonstrators. Some people get the result of people not being heard. So they hear.

I was not impressed by tear gassing peaceful demonstrators for a photo op to hold up the Bible and call for domination.

ant wrote:
The children of liberalism cannot keep from destroying others and themselves in the process.
Well, let's see. Could it be that oppressing other people destroys others? Could it be that neither indulging violence (by rioters or police or vigilantes) nor discriminating by race is a very healthy option? And maybe there is some more engaged track that treats this problem as a problem all of us have, and not just a problem of the poor?



Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:13 pm
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