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promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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Robert Tulip

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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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LanDroid wrote:
Mr. Tulip wrote: Darwinian logic means there is no actual heaven or hell, contrary to fundamental longstanding teachings of the Christian religion.
I don't think that's True. Darwin spoke to how life evolves, not to the supernatural.
The philosophical and scientific beauty and elegance of Darwinian logic is its simple ability to place the whole of life within a framework of cause and effect. The Darwinian attitude to causality effectively excludes any literal supernatural belief, while recognising that symbolic use of supernatural language can have strong selective benefit, even more so when the symbolic language pretends to be literal.

Evolutionary principles such as cumulative adaptation have a universal application, seen in the constant slow ratcheting up of ecological systems from simple to complex as organisms gradually filter through to fill available niches more effectively. Adaptation is a universal process that is punctuated by catastrophic collapses which make the whole complex system start again from a new simple base.

Darwinian logic as applied to heaven and hell looks to how the cultural ideas have been adaptive. The only evidence we have for heaven and hell is social belief, which has strong evolutionary relevance as a mechanism of social control and direction, but no apparent evolutionary meaning against the supernatural premise that the mythology has any literal truth.

Ockham’s Razor excludes the supernatural: humans have evolved to use fantastic stories as seen in the Bible as an essential component of social evolution, indoctrinating myths to weld society into a cohesive and stable whole. The purpose of stories about heaven and hell is to provide symbolic explanation of how society will evolve under selective pressure that is good or evil. Good selective pressures make earth more like heaven, while evil selective pressures make earth more like hell. Rather than depictions of an afterlife, heaven and hell depict what our world could become. That is a more simple and parsimonious explanation of how supernatural ideology evolved than any literal theory of divine revelation.

It is pretty sad that the author of this thread has such a weak grasp of causality, which should be recognised as a central moral and epistemic principle of human existence. The logic of causality underpins the elegant simplicity of the theory of evolution.

My effort in my previous post was aimed at imagining what it is like to exist inside a creationist bubble in satirical terms. I am not going to even try to understand what person123 is on about, since personal religious commitment to the political ideology of creationism is the only seemingly coherent reason to question evolution, and s/he rejects that as well.
LanDroid wrote: Yes the theory of evolution renders heaven, hell, and the supernatural unnecessary to explain the diversity of life. However it does not address abiogenesis, life after death, or the magic that's involved with Jesus' crucifixion and the forgiveness of current sins.
I disagree. Memetics applies the principles seen in genetic evolution to the evolution of culture, in order to study how myths such as the crucifixion came to have such stable and durable and fecund cultural sway. Only an evolutionary model of human existence can have any coherent plausible hypothesis about why people believe such weird magic.

For example, Max Weber in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism provided an evolutionary argument for belief in life after death, that the belief enabled people to be more productive, improving reproductive success. It may be a challenge to show that belief in forgiveness improves fecundity, but the principle of evolution suggests it must, including at the level of unconscious collective psychology, for example with economic factors such as the shift from tribal to urban life enhanced by the social cohesion that Christianity delivers.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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-"The philosophical and scientific beauty and elegance of Darwinian logic...."
Logic is not supposed to be beautiful or elegant, logic supposed to be correct or incorrect. And Darwinian logic is incorrect, so what do I care if it's beautiful or elegant?
And how does it excludes supernatural if it fails to adress subjects like the emergence of first cell, creation of the universe or the phenomena of conciousness?


-"...provided an evolutionary argument for belief in life after death, that the belief enabled people to be more productive, improving reproductive success."
Well now people don't believe in life after death no more, but for some reason the productiveness didn't drop... we produce more than ever now. So I guess the "evolutionary argument" wasn't correct after all.
Last edited by person123 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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person123 wrote:So asking basic questions like where did we get unique DNA, how 3 chamber heart evolved from 2 chamber heart, how bacterium evolved a flaggelum is "moving goalposts, use belligerence, being ignorant and being a naysayer..."?
These are Intelligent Design talking points. And you ask such questions, not to come to a better understanding of evolution, but to focus attention on the missing pieces. As such, your enquiries are disingenuous. If you were truly interested in learning more about evolution, you would pick up a book and read about it.

IDers keep moving the goalposts because scientists have already addressed many of the previous cases of alleged "irreducible complexity." It used to be the eye. For example: What good is half an eye? Well, the evolution of the eye is now much better understood, and so IDers have moved on to other things.

But anyway here's how mammals evolved 4-chambered hearts, from 3-chamber hearts. I await your dismissal of this article as "nonsense" or "too difficult". :clap2:

https://www.livescience.com/7877-unders ... ution.html
-Geo
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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geo wrote:
person123 wrote:So asking basic questions like where did we get unique DNA, how 3 chamber heart evolved from 2 chamber heart, how bacterium evolved a flaggelum is "moving goalposts, use belligerence, being ignorant and being a naysayer..."?
These are Intelligent Design talking points. And you ask such questions, not to come to a better understanding of evolution, but to focus attention on the missing pieces. As such, your enquiries are disingenuous. If you were truly interested in learning more about evolution, you would pick up a book and read about it.

IDers keep moving the goalposts because scientists have already addressed many of the previous cases of alleged "irreducible complexity." It used to be the eye. For example: What good is half an eye? Well, the evolution of the eye is now much better understood, and so IDers have moved on to other things.

But anyway here's how mammals evolved 4-chambered hearts, from 3-chamber hearts. I await your dismissal of this article as "nonsense" or "too difficult". LOL.

https://www.livescience.com/7877-unders ... ution.html

ok... by the way I don't know if you noticed, but I asked about 2 to 3 chambers evolution, not 3 to 4... but it's ok. Thank you. (I don't want to be accused for moving goalposts)
Last edited by person123 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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person123 wrote:Logic is not supposed to be beautiful or elegant
In science, a clear and simple argument with strong predictive power is seen as beautiful and elegant. For example Newton's laws of motion, with their ability to predict planetary positions to a high level of accuracy, display a beautiful logic, only surpassed by the refinement of Einstein's theory of relativity, whose formulation of the equation of matter and energy is supremely elegant. Darwin's hypothesis of descent with modification places all changes in life into a parsimonious framework. The beauty of the causal logic of evolution is its direct application to experience in the world.
person123 wrote:what do I care if it's beautiful or elegant?
If you had any interest in the relationship between theory and reality you would care about the beauty of scientific theory.
person123 wrote: And how does it excludes supernatural if it fails to adress subjects like the emergence of first cell, creation of the universe or the phenomena of conciousness?
We lack data to answer those questions. On all relevant problems where data is available, the theory of evolution fully excludes supernatural mythology.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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"In science, a clear and simple argument with strong predictive power"

What predicitive power does "evolution" have? What did it ever predicted?

"On all relevant problems where data is available, the theory of evolution fully excludes supernatural mythology"

Really? So can you tell me how 3 chambers heart have evolved? Or how unique DNA evolved? or how a bacterium flagellum evolved?
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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person123 wrote:"In science, a clear and simple argument with strong predictive power"

What predicitive power does "evolution" have? What did it ever predicted?
Yikes! You betray your ignorance of the subject by asking this question. There are numerous examples of evolutionary theory's predictive power, as well as potential discoveries that would falsify the theory.

This web site has a ton of information.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Just one example mentioned is that it was predicted that we would find transitional species between what is considered the first whale, Pakicetus, and the modern whale. In fact, several have been found.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibra ... vograms_03

Also, numerous instances of fossils have been found in specific geological strata exactly where predicted because it was already known when the organism lived. Likewise, it is known that several ancestors of humans—Australopithicus, Ardipithecus, and Kenyanthropus evolved in Africa long after the supercontinent Gondwana split off, so we would expect to find fossils of these early humans only in Africa. It would be problematic for the theory of universal common descent if we found fossils of these early humans in Antarctica, Australia, North America or South America.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc ... graphy_ex3

Why are we doing your research for you? That's the question you should be asking yourself. Certainly someone who would presume to write a book about evolution would have some knowledge of the subject.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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I asked you for 3 things:

1. how 2 chamber heart evolved into 3 chamber.
2. how did we get our unique dna that separates us from apes.
3. how bacteria evolved a flagellum.


But you don't have to answer... there is no point to argue about this.
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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You also asked about what predictions evolution could make. Geo answered that, did you look at it?
Geo provided information on the evolution of the heart from 3 chambers to 4, did you look at that?
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Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

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What predictions? What I'm supposed to look at?
The transitional between land mammal and a whale? Just because it looks likes a transitional, doesn't mean that it really is.
V-22 Osprey or Rotodyne aircrafts look like transitionals between helicopter and airplane, but that doesn't mean that it's a product of darwinian evolution.
Also SSC Bloodhound looks like transitional between a formula 1 and a jet fighter... doesn't have to do anything with darwinian evolution though.

Also I didn't asked for evolution between 3 and 4 chamber heart... did you notice?
Yes there are numerous diffirent 3 chamber hearts, that some of them knid of look like 4 chambers heart... so there is no clear line between 3 and 4 chamber hearts. So you might interpert it as "evolution". But what about the 2 chambers heart? You don't get to cherry pick.
Last edited by person123 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
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