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promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution 
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Person wrote:
As for the great canyon... I'm not exactly familiar with the theory of how the great canyon was formed. If you say it happened due to erosion, and if we observe water capable to cause erosion... so what is the problem?


Nothing. Just like there's no problem when we see microevolution and information increase between parent and offspring. Are you agreeing with me?

FYI, it's the Grand Canyon.

Quote:
buttom line that all this evidence can fit perfectly into intelligent design theory also... the problem here is with complex structures and dna. evolution can't explain those.


Evolution can't explain those? Where'd you get that from, youtube? :bananadance:

Evolution is the only thing that explains those. There's nothing else that offers an explanation worth looking at.

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Did I say George must be acquitted? I said that after finding Ross, the evidence is no longer good enough to get a conviction to any of those two...


That's a distinction without a difference. Hypothesis and theory selection follows a different set of rules from the court of law. I mentioned a couple of the criterion.

You say there's an alternative set of explanations, such as ID? Or that we're all inside an alien dream? Or we're all part of a video game from humanity's far future, inside space station Eros? Or Satan tinkered with evolution as it happened alongside God to make it "seem" as if we evolved. Or there is a genetic code from the Star Wars galaxy made of dark matter that we can't see that had already encoded every lifeform on earth, planted here millions of years ago? Perhaps there are infinite alternative sets of explanations.

Quote:
if you want to discuss evidence, then do it one by one... don't throw it all in one bunch at me.


You want me to pay for your college education? I don't take you serious enough. I've travelled this path of argument dozens of times, and you're stuck right in the same ruts as everyone who has come before you. Go educate yourself for real rather than watching youtube.

We have a rift in society because half the human race gets sucked in by alternative worldviews that are trash. Flat Earthism is on the rise, half of humanity denies Climate Change, or believes we were magically created 6,000 years ago, thinking science is a myth, etc.

Your position is immoral. Misinformation and wrongly held beliefs are damaging to the human race, due to variables never before seen... instant information transfer, endless information at our fingertips, the confirmation bias cesspool of internet search engines. Yet there isn't a moral response to this problem, it's all a slippery slope. You must be allowed freedom of speech, in spite of the damage you do. I'm at a loss, and really wish people like you would stop writing books based on a youtube education, for any malleable mind to stumble across.


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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
"Nothing. Just like there's no problem when we see microevolution and information increase between parent and offspring. Are you agreeing with me?"

No... water slowly eroding rock is not like creating new information or a new complex structure.

"Evolution can't explain those? Where'd you get that from, youtube?
Evolution is the only thing that explains those. There's nothing else that offers an explanation worth looking at."

In previous posts you admitted that we don't know how complex structures evolved... like 2 chamber heart becoming 3 camber heart.
But now you say that evolution does explain it... how?
Do you even understand what you are saying?

"That's a distinction without a difference."

No it's not. There is a difference. "Acquitting" means that we should assume George didn't do it... I didn't say that. I said that the evidence is not enough to get a conviction, and additional evidence needed.
As for alternative explanations, they have to be reasonable. If organisms have traits of design then it's reasonable to assume they were designed. If organisms have irreducibly complex biological systems that can't be explain by darwinian mechanisms, then it is unreasonable to assume that those organisms could have evolved by random mutations and natural selection.

"You want me to pay for your college education? "

How is discussing evidence one by one pays my college education?

What you said in the end is nonsense, I don't want even to respond to that.



Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:10 am
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Quote:
No... water slowly eroding rock is not like creating new information or a new complex structure.


The way an analogy works is that you take something complex, and explain it by way of appealing to something easier to understand. Like explaining the way gravity manipulates Earth's rotation around the Sun by using the analogy of a marble in a funnel.

Of course a funnel is nothing like the fabric of spacetime, and erosion is nothing like evolution. And still the analogies stand. What's interesting is I explained the workings of an analogy to my daughter last month using similar examples. The reason she was obtuse was something to do with feeding the dog though. She refuses to admit she's wrong, so we go down these same rabbit holes.

Quote:
In previous posts you admitted that we don't know how complex structures evolved... like 2 chamber heart becoming 3 camber heart.
But now you say that evolution does explain it... how?
Do you even understand what you are saying?


Evolution explains complex structures, and doesn't need to explain the granular evolutionary path of individual organs to do so. How many quadrillions of phenotypic items exist that haven't yet been thoroughly examined or explained by evolution? The vast majority for sure.

I don't think you're missing the point, I just think you're being obtuse. The veracity of evolution isn't judged by it's ability to explain gaps in knowledge, because the complexity of life on Earth is so vast that gaps will exist forever. Instead, the veracity of evolution is judged by the convergence of data from many fields of science.

Here's another analogy. All the items I mentioned before are categories of puzzle pieces. For this analogy, there are millions. We've put together vast swaths of the puzzle and the image is clear beyond the shadow of a doubt. All you're doing is pointing to areas where there's a missing puzzle piece.

Attachment:
Jigsaw Evolution.png
Jigsaw Evolution.png [ 3.18 MiB | Viewed 1294 times ]


Look, you don't have that piece! It must be an elephant! :slap:



Regarding paying for an education, having an institutional login is the best way to get access to all the evidence. In other words, go to college. I'm not a fan of the paywall, for the record.

Go through the links here to get started. The abstracts are available in all cases, but for full content you usually need to have the login or pay. After exhausting the links on the first few pages, you'll understand enough to search for yourself using different keywords. Make sure you're using Google Scholar, and avoid Youtube like the plague. If you do this for a few months on your own, it might be the same as taking a single college class. Then come back here with what you've found, and show us how evolution doesn't explain the evolution of a 3 chambered heart.

I don't know how a 3 chambered heart evolved, and I'm not going to pay to find the answer for you. I've been on enough wild goose chases for missing puzzle pieces over the years. I'm still missing a piece of the Darth Vader puzzle I put together. It annoys me, but no one else notices.


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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Why is it so important for you to prove the whole evolution thing? I don't want to torture you no more. You invest so much time and emotion in your posts...
But try to look at yourself from a side, you behave exactly like a religious person... you feel threatened and attacked once your religion is questioned. You can't even allow yourself to question it.

But I feel like I have no energy to play this cat and mouse game, this can go on forever.

Nice puzzle by the way... you solved it?



Last edited by person123 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:42 am, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:36 am
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
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Why is it so important for you to prove the whole evolution thing? I don't want to torture you no more. You invest so much time and emotion in your posts...


I truly believe that there's a lot at stake. This is like a single duel in a larger war, where truth is battling misinformation. If you go around spreading information that we know to be false, you expand the false worldview that millions can live within. When i mentioned flat earthism and climate change denialism, I wasn't being snarky. There's a rot at the core of civilization and it's growing. What does our future look like with half the population denying reality?


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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
oh... so you are like a social justice warrior... or something.



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Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:43 am
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Maybe an anti-misinformation warrior? Maybe someday I'll even write an e-book about it. :chatsmilies_com_92:


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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
but how do u decide what is the truth?



Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:19 am
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 Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Person123, here are some free courses (I'm sure there are more) that should clear up much of your confusion and expand your knowledge.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/genetics-evolution <= Introduction to Genetics and Evolution. Duke University. Hurry, starts today.
https://www.coursera.org/learn/evolution-today <= Evolution Today. Universiteit Leiden and Naturalis Biodiversity Center. Starts 12/9/19.



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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
People are terrible at figuring out what's true on their own. Or even in large groups. For starters, we can't rely on ourselves. We have to use tools to combat our own stupidity. The worst way to arrive at the truth is to observe something, then think it through. The operating system of our minds doesn't have the tools. We have to outsource this process to methods that are known to lead to truthful conclusions.

For parsing information and structures between concepts, we have to start with logic. Understand each type of fallacy and work on identifying them. It isn't easy, and many fallacies go against dearly held methods of reasoning that we've grown up using.

For gathering new information, we observe something we want to understand, then hypothesize as best we can, and figure out the crucial experiments to determine if it's true or false. But what we hypothesize can't be in the vein of an alien dream or futuristic video game, etc. There are a million hypotheticals that aren't testable, can't be falsified, aren't tangible, and aren't parsimonious for any given phenomenon. When we have a workable hypothesis, we try to prove it false. We come up with crucial experiments, which are intentionally structured to get to the heart of the truthfulness of a hypothesis.

That's still not enough, of course, because we trick ourselves, reason emotionally, etc. So the experiments need to minimize the human influence by way of double blind procedures, allowing for repeatability and testability and reproducibility, and be reviewed by others.

If we do enough experiments over long enough time, and the hypothesis isn't shown false after many attempts, it becomes a theory. If certain small parts of it are shown false, the hypothesis may be discarded or reworked. If we find small parts of a strong hypothesis or theory to be false, then we acknowledge the problem but don't yet call it "false", since there's obviously a modicum of verisimillitude. The anomalies build up over time into a paradigm change, which is when large parts of the web of knowledge need to be reworked or tweaked to account for the anomalies.

Theories aren't proven true. They're just tested to the point where we can't think of a new ways to prove them false or to modify them. There's a difference between something being certainly true(few things are), and having truthfulness. Some parts of unprovable knowledge approach certainty, even if it's unattainable.


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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
LanDroid wrote:
Person123, here are some free courses (I'm sure there are more) that should clear up much of your confusion and expand your knowledge.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/genetics-evolution <= Introduction to Genetics and Evolution. Duke University. Hurry, starts today.
https://www.coursera.org/learn/evolution-today <= Evolution Today. Universiteit Leiden and Naturalis Biodiversity Center. Starts 12/9/19.


hehe thanks LanDroid... maybe Duke University should teach my book on their courses.



Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
Interbane wrote:
People are terrible at figuring out what's true on their own. Or even in large groups. For starters, we can't rely on ourselves. We have to use tools to combat our own stupidity. The worst way to arrive at the truth is to observe something, then think it through. The operating system of our minds doesn't have the tools. We have to outsource this process to methods that are known to lead to truthful conclusions.

For parsing information and structures between concepts, we have to start with logic. Understand each type of fallacy and work on identifying them. It isn't easy, and many fallacies go against dearly held methods of reasoning that we've grown up using.

For gathering new information, we observe something we want to understand, then hypothesize as best we can, and figure out the crucial experiments to determine if it's true or false. But what we hypothesize can't be in the vein of an alien dream or futuristic video game, etc. There are a million hypotheticals that aren't testable, can't be falsified, aren't tangible, and aren't parsimonious for any given phenomenon. When we have a workable hypothesis, we try to prove it false. We come up with crucial experiments, which are intentionally structured to get to the heart of the truthfulness of a hypothesis.

That's still not enough, of course, because we trick ourselves, reason emotionally, etc. So the experiments need to minimize the human influence by way of double blind procedures, allowing for repeatability and testability and reproducibility, and be reviewed by others.

If we do enough experiments over long enough time, and the hypothesis isn't shown false after many attempts, it becomes a theory. If certain small parts of it are shown false, the hypothesis may be discarded or reworked. If we find small parts of a strong hypothesis or theory to be false, then we acknowledge the problem but don't yet call it "false", since there's obviously a modicum of verisimillitude. The anomalies build up over time into a paradigm change, which is when large parts of the web of knowledge need to be reworked or tweaked to account for the anomalies.

Theories aren't proven true. They're just tested to the point where we can't think of a new ways to prove them false or to modify them. There's a difference between something being certainly true(few things are), and having truthfulness. Some parts of unprovable knowledge approach certainty, even if it's unattainable.


Do you have an education? May I ask what you do?



Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:19 pm
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
I'm a janitor. I have no education. I won't be offended if you look down on this, I get it a lot.


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Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:09 pm
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
It's ok... I don't have any official education also... except school.



Last edited by person123 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:46 pm
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Post Re: promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution
You don't need an official education. There are some good resources online. The SEP(Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy), Google Scholar, and the right books. We have a vast library of book conversations here on Booktalk.

Don't google an argument point that you want to support. Instead, google the opposing argument. Always research the support of what contradicts your argument. Be your own worst enemy with everything you believe.


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Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:05 pm
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