Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:24 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next
For Your Impeachment Consideration 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6361
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2037 times in 1542 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post For Your Impeachment Consideration
Day one of the impeachment proceeding leaves me inclined to agree with conservative columnist Marc A. Thiessen that gross incompetence is the best takeaway on Ukrainegate, rather than a Nixonian abuse of power. This means that impeachment might well not be justified, though Trump's actions were certainly wrong. But doing wrong things is not necessarily impeachable, nor is incompetence. Trump has always been, from my point of view, unfit for the office, but that is something a majority of voters (or rather, electors) need to decide.

But it's early in the process, and new evidence and a full laying out of the facts might cause me to change my mind. The concerns that have been brought up are certainly worthy of this kind of public investigation, however. If the conclusion is "no impeachment," that does not mean that the process was wasted effort, any more than the Mueller investigation was wasted effort.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html



Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:55 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
pets endangered by possible book avalanche

BookTalk.org Moderator
Platinum Contributor

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4396
Location: NC
Thanks: 1866
Thanked: 1937 times in 1450 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
I see that Nancy Pelosi today said that Trump's negotiations with Ukraine were essentially an attempt at "bribery", which is an impeachable offense. Certainly many of the witnesses felt Trump's actions to be improper and possibly against the law. But otherwise, I tend to agree with Thiessen's argument that Trump simply blunders into improper situations out of sheer ignorance and stupidity. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for not impeachment.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who seem bent on impeachment no matter what. I think this is a mistake. Removing Trump from office would only feed into a toxic narrative that this is a coup. It would be much better to vote Trump out of office in the 2020 election.

Wendell Berry had some unsolicited advice for the Kerry campaign in 2004 that is surprisingly relevant today. He wrote:

Quote:
Facing this year's presidential election, our people are bitterly divided. This division is perhaps as great a threat to our future as is the possibility of a second term for Mr. Bush. And so the paramount question for Senator Kerry's campaign is how to oppose Mr. Bush effectively without so exacerbating the country's political differences as to reduce the possibility of effective government should Senator Kerry win the election.


To remove Trump from office would, I believe, cause such a severe backlash that we might see Pence or someone like Ted Cruz be elected in 2020. So really our best hope is that the House will vote to impeach but the Senate will decline to remove him from office, just as it played out for Bill Clinton. Removing Trump from office is not what's best for our country.


_________________
-Geo
Question everything


The following user would like to thank geo for this post:
DWill
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:40 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Aficionado

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1774
Thanks: 154
Thanked: 733 times in 551 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
I'm not a Trump fan (except that he drives Democrats crazy) and I think the Republican party is a joke. But the way I look at it, as far as misconduct from modern Presidents, this is ludicrously trivial. Where is the outrage for the unconstitutional wars and unconstitutional executive orders? The previous crackdown on whistleblowers and journalists? Detaining and kill lists for US citizens without trial?

The media is framing it as "digging dirt on a political rival." You could also frame it as "finding out information about corruption." Why only Biden? Well, Trump doesn't like him, so what? If you don't look into all corruption, it's illegitimate? There's a reason why Schiff embarrassed himself with his "parody" of the phone call. Because if you just heard this without the media hype, you wouldn't even notice anything had happened.



The following user would like to thank Dexter for this post:
DWill
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:23 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 840
Thanks: 36
Thanked: 470 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
White people are funny.



Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:00 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Aficionado

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1774
Thanks: 154
Thanked: 733 times in 551 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
DB Roy wrote:
White people are funny.


Attachments:
1_ZBrg1rPPv-hvte0RkBYgPA.jpeg
1_ZBrg1rPPv-hvte0RkBYgPA.jpeg [ 75.75 KiB | Viewed 359 times ]

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Just realized BookTalk.org is awesome!

Silver Contributor

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 791
Location: Florida
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 464 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
Claiming gross incompetence as evidence of an inability to form a quid pro quo would be an ideal defense for PSfB and I think PSfB should own it.

Thiessen is hardly objective in this, he’s a libertarian fox in GOP clothing, PSfB didn’t need merely more than an official statement of intent to investigate Biden and Burisma by Zelensky in order to use it as a political wedge issue in the 2020 campaign. It’s actually brilliant and therefore shows the intent and need for the implied threat. The fact that trump was busted shouldn’t let him off the hook. I think that voting for impeachment is a good thing, let the Senate carry through with what ever charade they can produce.

The Mueller report did not exonerate Trump from collaboration with the Russians, there simply was insufficient evidence that he did. PSfB’s incompetence seems to be the latest form of obstruction. Like I said PSfB should own his incompetence, then see if those appalachian types pack those arenas.

PSfB is hardly the guy to get to the bottom of global corruption, no, the bigger crime is PSfB’s implied threat, Mulvaney said “get over it” “it happens all the time” .



The following user would like to thank Taylor for this post:
DWill
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:10 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6361
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2037 times in 1542 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
Those are perceptive comments. I have to admit a possible weakness, in that I don't always know what to think. I find it extremely hard to find perspective that could claim to be objective. Politics is a short term game in which the urge is to press for any immediate advantage we see, or fend off a supposed immediate consequence. But what about the long view that relies more on thought and principle? Am I being naive?

Taylor, I've disagreed with Thiessen in the past, seeing him as a Trump apologist at times. But I want to avoid pre-judging him based on his political stripe. If that attitude makes me a little prone to being taken in by his argument, I guess I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing.

If anybody sees short articles they think have something to contribute on this topic (or related), please send them .



Last edited by DWill on Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:55 am
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6361
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2037 times in 1542 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
DB Roy wrote:
White people are funny.

I don't understand your comment.



Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:15 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7074
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1078
Thanked: 2077 times in 1666 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
Even if the error was made by incompetence, what sort of precedent would it set to allow him to get away with an otherwise impeachable offense? Is it really a defense to say that he's so stupid he doesn't realize what he's done is wrong? Wouldn't that pass into the territory of gross incompetence?


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:54 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 840
Thanks: 36
Thanked: 470 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
DWill wrote:
DB Roy wrote:
White people are funny.

I don't understand your comment.


And hence my comment.



Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:32 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 840
Thanks: 36
Thanked: 470 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
Interbane wrote:
Even if the error was made by incompetence, what sort of precedent would it set to allow him to get away with an otherwise impeachable offense? Is it really a defense to say that he's so stupid he doesn't realize what he's done is wrong? Wouldn't that pass into the territory of gross incompetence?


The way I see it, he wanted to be president. So being too stupid for the job is no excuse. When you tell me you want this position or that position, okay. Fine with me. But if you turn out to be a walking disaster, I will not stick up for you. You wanted the job, you got the job--now DO the job. If you can't do the job then leave the job. If you refuse to leave the job then you must be removed from the job.

Go to any workplace in America and see if I'm wrong.



Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:36 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6361
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2037 times in 1542 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
DB Roy wrote:
DWill wrote:
DB Roy wrote:
White people are funny.

I don't understand your comment.


And hence my comment.

I didn't think I needed to add, " Please explain. "



Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:27 am
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6361
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2037 times in 1542 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
The point Thiessen is trying to make isn't that incompetence, or stupidity, releases people from responsibility for what they do. He's not saying that Trump's incompetence makes him not guilty of a quid pro quo; in fact, Thiessen seems to doubt that there was a quid pro quo, calling it "alleged." The incompetence he speaks of is more general, encompassing Trump's entire tenure, and is most attributable to his extreme gullibility and his lack of any guiding principles. His mind is a welter of urges and momentary convictions that rise from "information" the people around him, and on TV, feed him, and his need for attention. Those traits are also typical of someone who lacks intelligence.

Thiessen's verdict would seem to be that, yes, Trump is unfit for the office, but that impeachment isn't designed to remove presidents who are disastrously incompetent without having committed high crimes and misdemeanors. Thiessen doesn't think Trump has done this, but the Democrats have moved to bring their charges in line with one of the only two specific crimes named in the Constitution: bribery. The inquiry needs to firmly establish the basis for a bribery charge. If it can't, there is still the illegality of asking for something of value from a foreign govt. in regard to a U.S. election. Is that a high enough crime, though?

It's really hard to escape the influence of Trump's history of lying, vindictiveness, cowardice, and inconstancy when deciding whether he should be impeached. But it seems important to keep that separate.

(Regarding unfitness, Trump put a big exclamation point on it with his extraordinary and baseless attack on former ambassador Yovanovitch during her testimony yesterday.)



Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:31 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 840
Thanks: 36
Thanked: 470 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
DWill wrote:
.
I didn't think I needed to add, " Please explain. "


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9qv8RS ... wEOoZhKs7I



Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:46 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Just realized BookTalk.org is awesome!

Silver Contributor

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 791
Location: Florida
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 464 times in 359 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: For Your Impeachment Consideration
So far what is lacking is the “John Dean” moment, the inner circle guy to drop dimes on PSfB. This person is there but has not been motivated to step forward.

I think that an aspect of this particular impeachment is that we are learning that no two impeachments are alike. Comparisons are difficult as a result.

There has been a cumulative lowering of standards from the moment PSfB descended that escalator and announced his intention to be President. I am convinced that the best message to put out to the people of the planet Earth is to throw this guy out of office immediately and permanently. Clear and decisive messaging is muddled by articles such as Thiessen’s. Bribery, extortion, asking favors for personal political gain is unconstitutional, PSfB accomplishes all that, it’s right there in the phone transcripts, David Brooks has no doubt of the implied intent of PSfB’s actions, he’s objective enough for me.

I get the desire to be “agnostic” in thinking of this event, we want to be fair, we want to give voice to all sides and I think that so far we are doing that.

To me there are things of greater value at stake, eliminating opinion as fact comes to mind, the notion of alternative facts, It’s a blight on reason. Are these high crimes and misdemeanors? No, but they are a means to sow doubt in people’s minds. That doubt favors PSfB. There is no risk in throwing the guy out. If history provides that it was a mistake, I’ll wager our chucking him would be the lesser cost. Current economics alone will not get trump re-elected, he needs his various hoaxes.

I would say that Thiessen is in fact making the case for removal via the 25tth amendment, that lack of intelligence in a president of the United States is clearly a disability, not just for PSfB but more importantly for the country.

At the bottom of DWill’ linked article there are at least a half dozen articles with differing opinions.



Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:16 pm
Profile Email
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


Recent Posts 
• Naked Ambition: A Male Stripper’s True Account of Making Girls Behave Badly

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:18 pm

stefandiamante

• The Depopulation Agenda - war on humanity

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:19 am

DWill

• Seeking reviews for my adventure book called Truth Come to Light

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:39 am

AuthorTaryn

• A Wintry Tale of Music, Adventure and Lost Love

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:56 am

kl07-04

• promoting my ebook: Logic against Evolution

Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:28 am

person123

• The Coup against Donald Trump

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:36 pm

KindaSkolarly

• Science Fiction Reviewers Needed - Okuda!: A Dryden Universe Corporate Wars Novel

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:06 pm

BookBuzz

• The Galaxy Series by Renee Steffan

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:28 am

Steffanrenee

• "That Feeling When You Know You're Doomed" is now $0.99 on Amazon until Dec. 10.

Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:17 am

JamesGBoswell

• "It’s 2039, and Your Beloved Books Are Dead"

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:37 pm

LanDroid

• When Dreams Come to Pass volume 1 & 2 available for $1 each on Amazon in US

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:59 am

Dave

• Seeking Reviewers - Contemporary Holiday Romance - Snowflake Wishes, Christmas Kisses

Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:51 pm

josette

• Seeking Reviews for the YA Romance Novel - Street Magic By Taylor S Seese

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 pm

josette

• 173 Declared Democratic Presidential Candidates

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:57 pm

KindaSkolarly

• Children's Book Reviewers Wanted - Meeting Kaia (Kaia the Fairy in the Garden)

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:18 pm

AdrianvAuthor


Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank