Harry wrote;

Okay, there's a difference between saying the immigration we have is positive, (which I would agree with and I am not surprised most democrats do too,) and saying that more would be better, (which many democrats would not support, including me.)

The numbers are not static of course. The trend indicates a significant rise supporting immigration: Democratic support 2006 20% support / 2018 40% support

http://www.people-press.org/2018/06/28/ ... o-the-u-s/

So lets think about that a minute. As long as you think of the education of their children as a cost of first-generation immigrants (not necessarily illegal immigrants), they look like a drain on state and local governments. But over the lifetime of those children, who are second-generation, they are "among the strongest contributors". So we are really talking about investing in their children, not draining the coffers to support them.

They don't "look like" a drain at the local level, they are a drain. And at the federal level it's a very mixed bag. Please read the link I shared with you again.

As a child grandchild of legal immigrants from Mexico my perspective is quite different. It's very generous of you to want to invest OUR money in THEIR children, specifically children who's parents are here illegally.
I'd like to see OUR money invested more in some of the woes legal citizens live with - homelessness, under preforming schools, food banks for citizens that do not know where their next meal is coming from, veteran care, senior care, etc etc.

how worried we should be about uneven effects on particular cities and states.

If you were experiencing some of the local problems California / Los Angeles is experiencing, you might be more concerned. My friend who has worked in public social services for the city of Los Angeles for over 30 years can't quite understand how some welfare recipients afford some of their luxury items. An enormous amount of money goes to "no questions asked" local services, while thousands of people sleep under bridges and out in the open. Many of them are African American and Caucasian.
We have an alarming homeless problem.

I wish we could create a utopia and help everyone that decides to leave their country of birth, Harry, but we can't. At least not yet.
The harsh reality is we cannot turn two baskets of fish and bread into a feast for every immigrant that flees their country of birth.
Infrastructures can only withstand so much.

Keep Calm and Resist

Yeah, I can't wait until the Democrats are back in power to topple more 3rd world governments and leave their people in states of chaos worse than before.

ant wrote:

Keep Calm and Resist

Yeah, I can't wait until the Democrats are back in power to topple more 3rd world governments and leave their people in states of chaos worse than before.

Layers are the best way to fend off the cold. A balaclava would be nice for windy days. Tricky Dick told us his wife didn't have a fur coat, but she did have a coat of good Republican cloth.
There's going to be a run on good Republican cloth.

Layers, Republicans, remember to dress in layers.

ant wrote:

So lets think about that a minute. As long as you think of the education of their children as a cost of first-generation immigrants (not necessarily illegal immigrants), they look like a drain on state and local governments. But over the lifetime of those children, who are second-generation, they are "among the strongest contributors". So we are really talking about investing in their children, not draining the coffers to support them.

They don't "look like" a drain at the local level, they are a drain. And at the federal level it's a very mixed bag. Please read the link I shared with you again.

I have a lot of background in finance, and when an investment is worthwhile, you make sure to find the money. I realize a lot of states don't allow themselves to borrow, but most of them could be doing a better job of managing their investments. Of course Republican austerity has prevented anything like good management over the last 10 years, but that's sophisticated economics stuff and ordinary people don't care to understand it. Like coverage of pre-existing conditions.

ant wrote:As a child grandchild of legal immigrants from Mexico my perspective is quite different. It's very generous of you to want to invest OUR money in THEIR children, specifically children who's parents are here illegally.
I'd like to see OUR money invested more in some of the woes legal citizens live with - homelessness, under preforming schools, food banks for citizens that do not know where their next meal is coming from, veteran care, senior care, etc etc.

Keep in mind the analysis you referred me to was for all immigrants, not just illegal. So presumably your grandparents were "drains on government" for states and localities (I don't think education has gotten a lot cheaper since then.)

We would all like to see better care for the needy, I hope. But most of the items you listed don't qualify as investments: they don't pay back more tax money later to repay what was invested in them. I'm not saying that means the money should not be found, but when you have an investment that will pay back, the money should be found, as a matter of practicality.

ant wrote:

how worried we should be about uneven effects on particular cities and states.

If you were experiencing some of the local problems California / Los Angeles is experiencing, you might be more concerned. My friend who has worked in public social services for the city of Los Angeles for over 30 years can't quite understand how some welfare recipients afford some of their luxury items. An enormous amount of money goes to "no questions asked" local services, while thousands of people sleep under bridges and out in the open. Many of them are African American and Caucasian.
We have an alarming homeless problem.

I wish we could create a utopia and help everyone that decides to leave their country of birth, Harry, but we can't. At least not yet.
The harsh reality is we cannot turn two baskets of fish and bread into a feast for every immigrant that flees their country of birth.
Infrastructures can only withstand so much.

Well, if no questions are asked, presumably that means homeless people can get those services too. I am somewhat familiar with the homeless problem in Southern California, as I am from there and visit regularly. It is a complex mess. Expensive housing plays into it, warm weather attracts homeless people from elsewhere, towns have been trying to stop charity to the homeless, as in Florida, so they will go away, and on and on. The solution to these problems is not to hunt down every undocumented immigrant so more money will be available, or to deny public schooling to the children of immigrants.

It seems to me the toughest part of the problem is distinguishing between refugees and economic migrants. Reporting on the "caravan" has made it plain that the people fleeing their homelands in Central America don't distinguish. They are running from violence and they are trying to find better economic opportunities, both. I rather expect we are making both types of error - sending some back who are killed by those terrorizing them, and letting some through as refugees who weren't really under very much threat. I don't think I would get along well with anyone who thinks there is an easy answer to this problem.

Here is an interesting video made on location with the incoming caravan that allegedly has thousands of hungry families, women, and children.

Some of the claims the author makes is that the caravan is obviously being funded with millions of dollars of supplies, escorted by mexican police, and the organization World Without Borders is along for the ride to add support.

total run time - 7:42




[yes - I realize there are a few sarcastic comments that make this seem to be a right-slanted mini production.. but I think it's worth a watch]

Republicans too! We are attempting to do so for a family, but the Gov't makes this ever more difficult. If they aren't immediate family members or seeking asylum, seems it's nearly impossible to get citizenship.