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The Coup against Donald Trump

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Robert Tulip

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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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vizitelly wrote:I realise that this may be considered as a very naïve question, and possibly derided as such, but I've not found a truly convincing answer: why do Trump supporters love him so much ? When asked, they never answer the question directly and clearly, without artifice, insult or anger.
Trump supporters have a deep resentment against the cultural dominance of progressive politics, and a view that Trump (as a right wing demagogue like Nixon and Hitler before him) speaks and fights back for an alleged 'silent majority', in a way that rejects the moral framework of social justice in favour of a more competitive mentality.

Many conservatives are not very articulate or coherent, and they welcome Trump as a culture warrior who can argue for values that are widely rejected in the prevailing discourses of modern society. His extremism and charisma generated the energy that won him the nomination and the election.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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Ah, the 'silent majority' - except they aren't; not unlike most places, in UK it's the Brexiteers. I was thinking about Trump's subtext of being for the disenfranchised. I came to the conclusion that they aren't disenfranchised, but poor and know that they are exploited. Amazingly, they vote for more exploitation. Easy pickings for fascists and con men. Arturo Ui is rubbing hands together again.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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vizitelly wrote:I realise that this may be considered as a very naïve question, and possibly derided as such, but I've not found a truly convincing answer: why do Trump supporters love him so much ? When asked, they never answer the question directly and clearly, without artifice, insult or anger.
The closest I have seen to a solid answer to this question was in a recent column by Charles Blow. I don't usually like his stuff, but precisely because he is coming from a particular, unusual perspective, he sometimes sees what I don't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/opin ... mpism.html

The idea of Trump as a folk hero actually makes sense of a lot of stuff to me. Think of Robin Hood - it isn't so much what he stood for that made him a folk hero, as what he got away with. His exploits. Trump is all about exploits, in a weird, 21st century, wired-on-the-web-with-reality-TV sort of way. He got away with being outrageous, (still is in some ways,) like the good ol boys who drive away at high speed from the Revenuers who come after their backwoods stills, or like the tall tale tellers who don't expect to be believed but know how to top someone else's yarn, or like the Merry Pranksters who burst the bubble of those who pretend to stand for truth and right but are raking in the cash from secret corporate connections. He's Dirty Harry. He's Lisbeth Salander, the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. He's Jesse James.

We're talking way out in the Right Brain, here, where logic makes no nevermind.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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Along the lines of the folk hero, Matt Taibbi has famously stated that Trump is playing a heel act (bad guy) in World Wide Wrestling.

Gotta luv Charles Blow, he has written an excellent memoir...
vizitelly wrote: I came to the conclusion that they aren't disenfranchised, but poor and know that they are exploited. Amazingly, they vote for more exploitation.
That is true for some Trump supporters. I have watched them state on camera that they voted for Trump in order to get rid of Obama-care. Somehow they were shocked when their own Obama-care plans were cancelled. They imagined only lazy bums would lose insurance, not hard working good folks like themselves! :x

However, overall it's not true that Trump supporters are poor, their average income is significantly above the national average.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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Harry Marks wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/opin ... mpism.html
We're talking way out in the Right Brain, here, where logic makes no nevermind.
That is an excellent article, delving deep into the mythological psychology of politics. It well explains how demagogic leadership uses emotion to trump reason, and how Trump’s repetitive use of messages targets deep tribal feelings of fear and belonging to generate a powerful bond between him and his supporters.

For those who would like government policy to be more based on logic and evidence, the psychology is important. The Right Brain targets emotion and constructs myths, while the Left Brain targets reason, meaning a balanced political message requires an equal ability to speak to both parts of the brain. Going too far in either direction generates a reaction whose causes are in large part unconscious. That seems to be a big reason why Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump, that she and her supporters assumed the modern progressive mentality of basing policy on evidence would resonate broadly across the electorate, and did not understand how progressivism is viewed by its critics as a rival myth.

This problem of psychological balance is essential in understanding the role of religious faith in the formation of human identity. Faith constructs a mental fortress that evidence cannot penetrate, except when facts are explained by people who are already inside the castle and share the value system of its residents. This creates difficult problems about negotiation and compromise. Giving ground to ideas that you dislike, for example with secular-minded people accepting the importance of conventional Christian faith for cultural identity, can enable conversations about other topics.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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SPYGATE

The Department of Justice's Spygate investigation will look into whether proper procedure was followed in the three-year persecution of candidate and then president Donald Trump.

I expect the FISA warrants will be the center of focus. Were they obtained properly? Did people lie in order to get warrants to spy on the Trump campaign? Hillary Clinton and the Democrats paid for a fictional "dossier" that was apparently the only basis for the first FISA warrant. Even before arch-traitor John McCain flew the dossier to Washington, the intelligence community KNEW that it was phony. Was the fact that it was paid for by Trump's presidential opponent made clear to the judge who issued the warrant? And in the, what, three FISA renewals, what other phony evidence was used? And who knew what when? FBI agents exchanged emails talking about how POTUS (President of the US) wanted to be kept informed. If it can be shown that Obama was directing the FBI's spying on Trump, then the magnitude of that crime will be Vesuvius compared to the pimple that was Watergate. If Hillary Clinton was involved then we'll have Krakatoa vs the zit of her pointy little head.

If people on the Left were so concerned about Trump and Russia possibly working together to subvert American institutions, then why aren't they concerned about Obama, Clinton and the FBI working together to subvert American institutions?
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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KS wrote:If people on the Left were so concerned about Trump and Russia possibly working together to subvert American institutions, then why aren't they concerned about Obama, Clinton and the FBI working together to subvert American institutions?
It's a fact that Russia worked to subvert American institutions, even if Trump is too stupid to help. If you believe the "news" about Obama and Clinton doing the same you're deluded.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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LanDroid wrote:Along the lines of the folk hero, Matt Taibbi has famously stated that Trump is playing a heel act (bad guy) in World Wide Wrestling.
Watching wrestling on TV was probably my first real clue that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy.
LanDroid wrote:
vizitelly wrote: I came to the conclusion that they aren't disenfranchised, but poor and know that they are exploited. Amazingly, they vote for more exploitation.
That is true for some Trump supporters. I have watched them state on camera that they voted for Trump in order to get rid of Obama-care. Somehow they were shocked when their own Obama-care plans were cancelled. They imagined only lazy bums would lose insurance, not hard working good folks like themselves!

Also, medical care is complex. The attempt to reduce everything to "the market" (= "freedom") just doesn't work for medical care. I don't think the average American realized that covering pre-existing conditions would raise the (private) cost of medical insurance even though it would lower the overall cost of the system. But currently the corporations are hellbent on persuading more and more Americans that an option of Medicare for All is the only force that will restrain their rapaciousness. Insulin prices rising far faster than any possible justification based on cost. Absurdly high deductibles being used to screen out pre-existing conditions. Pharmaceutical companies clamoring to blame the victims for the opioid crisis while also cashing in on demand for treatment. And down that road is Single-Payer, whether conservatives shout "Socialism!" at every stop or not.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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Robert Tulip wrote: how Trump’s repetitive use of messages targets deep tribal feelings of fear and belonging to generate a powerful bond between him and his supporters.
Started reading Baldwin's "The Fire Next Time" for no good reason today, and found he has a similar ability to get around carefully constructed edifices of Reason and bring the floods and eddies of emotion to the surface. I don't think it's possible to understand White Nationalism and Anti-Semitism without having that gut feeling of "us" and "them" accessible. Not to say that Trump's victory is all about such other-ing, or his continued popularity with his base, but so much of American politics and social relations have been driven by them over the decades that I refuse to believe any narrative which omits the raw emotional power of such evil forces. Baldwin repeatedly makes the point that life in white America will continue to be about self-delusion and pretend innocence until we face what slavery and segregation did to us: what monsters it released and what complicity lurked behind myths of stability and order.

To tame that chthonic horror requires more than just Wokeness. It requires understanding in fairly gruesome detail how cooperation makes civilized society and modern affluence possible, and how giving in to fracturing Us and Them narratives not only is being used by manipulative commercial elites but destroys the foundations of prosperity.
Robert Tulip wrote:For those who would like government policy to be more based on logic and evidence, the psychology is important. The Right Brain targets emotion and constructs myths, while the Left Brain targets reason, meaning a balanced political message requires an equal ability to speak to both parts of the brain. Going too far in either direction generates a reaction whose causes are in large part unconscious. That seems to be a big reason why Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump, that she and her supporters assumed the modern progressive mentality of basing policy on evidence would resonate broadly across the electorate, and did not understand how progressivism is viewed by its critics as a rival myth.
I'm not sure I am up to diving into this complexity at the moment, but armed with Baldwin's boldness I will give it a try. On one level I really, really agree with this. The Left Brain processes of legitimacy and rational order have clearly gone too far in terms of dismissing even the goals embodied in simple religion. Anyone who knows Mennonites, for example, can't help but be impressed at the power that devotion brings to human idealism. To try to reduce that to self-delusion, in favor of gaping at Game of Thrones and sneering at the Kardashians because "everyone makes their own choices" is to plunge into a self-delusion far more desperate in its soul. If we are not saved by love, we are not saved at all - reason may build the house, but it is not a home until it is inhabited by love. And as far as anyone can tell, that happens in the Right Brain, in processes deeper than anything reason has penetrated to (and can only make space for by fighting off fear).

Yet I find myself rejecting the specifics of opting simply for "balance". There is renewal happening on many fronts, from the dramatic acceleration of standards of living in Asia and Latin America to the educational progress coming from reconciliation methods and the luxury of focusing on all the students, not just the most successful ones. Reason is a mighty force, capable of solving problems that inchoate longings merely react to with frustration and eventually violence. "Yes, we can!" is the right spirit, but it has to be anchored in confidence based on understanding. The long recession, and its depredations on public services, combined with the job losses in manufacturing that have undermined small town economies and the devastation of the latest drug epidemic, have shifted a fundamental balance toward fear. However, fear isn't the only Right Brain mode.
Robert Tulip wrote: Faith constructs a mental fortress that evidence cannot penetrate, except when facts are explained by people who are already inside the castle and share the value system of its residents. This creates difficult problems about negotiation and compromise. Giving ground to ideas that you dislike, for example with secular-minded people accepting the importance of conventional Christian faith for cultural identity, can enable conversations about other topics.
You have been sounding this note regularly, and I tend to find it appealing. The combination of people within the "fortress" explaining, and those outside dialoguing with tolerance, has made great strides. I hold out hope that it will succeed further.
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Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

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Story published today:

FBI found Hillary Clinton’s emails in Obama White House
U.S District Court Judge Royce Lamberth ordered Obama administration senior State Department officials, lawyers, and Clinton aides, as well as Priestap, to be deposed or answer writer questions under oath. The court ruled that the Clinton email system was “one of the gravest modern offenses to government transparency.”
governmentslaves.news/2019/04/23/fbi-fo ... ite-house/

And then there's this. Talks about the origin of the Russiagate hoax:

BREAKING: Papadopuolos spills the beans on new spygate player, Arvinder Sambei…
citizenfreepress.com/breaking/papadopuo ... te-player/

And this:

‘There is going to be a grand jury and Obama folks are going to need lawyers’…
citizenfreepress.com/breaking/there-is- ... d-lawyers/

The U.S. just dodged the biggest threat to the nation since the War of Secession. A group of America-hating insiders attempted to overthrow our elected president. Our new Attorney General appears to be genuinely pissed off about what the rogue insiders did. It looks as if we might get a thorough investigation into how the phony Russiagate thing came about, and who was involved in promoting it. According to what's already on record, Obama knew early on about the 'Russians in the Trump campaign.' Such horseshit. But Obama's team is on record saying he knew about the threat, yet he didn't notify the Trump people that they might be compromised. Instead, moles were placed in the campaign. And once the moles were in place, they tried to trick Trump's people into breaking the law. Obama ignored a potential threat to the nation in order to gain political advantage.

It looks like we're going to have grand juries. If we do, Obama and Hillary Clinton are in deep, deep trouble.
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