• In total there are 33 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 33 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

The Coup against Donald Trump

A forum dedicated to friendly and civil conversations about domestic and global politics, history, and present-day events.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
vizitelly
Finally Comfortable
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:13 am
5
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

That is true, Johnson did have a shot at leading the Tory Party, but the system is robust. He will probably try again, but he is not popular within the party so will most likely not gain that position. The Tories have always preferred what they refer to as 'a safe pair of hands' and Johnson is far from that.
What you say about fascists is also true - the idea of 'one strong man at the top' - but it is odd that Trump has shown that he isn't that either: a useless negotiator (Kim runs rings around him, as does Putin), unable to deliver on his campaign pledges, taken to the cleaners by whores, considered to be a white supremacist in a country that fought that war over a century ago, a multiple bankrupt....I could go on. So, for his diehard supporters, is it simply a case of 'what's not to like?'
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

What you say about fascists is also true - the idea of 'one strong man at the top' - but it is odd that Trump has shown that he isn't that either: a useless negotiator (Kim runs rings around him, as does Putin), unable to deliver on his campaign pledges, taken to the cleaners by whores, considered to be a white supremacist in a country that fought that war over a century ago, a multiple bankrupt....I could go on. So, for his diehard supporters, is it simply a case of 'what's not to like?'

Great point--you're absolutely right--the puzzle remains even though I thought the strongman explained simply the Trump teflon phenomenon. I now recall an acquaintance--British, by chance--making a point when Trump first came to the fore. He asked why, if the country needs to turn to the "strong leader," somebody like Trump would be the guy. If you look at his resume it's plain that he's a competent strongman only on reality TV. Then we're left with more specific ways to explain Trump's staying power, such as the way he has stoked the grievances of whites at the lower end of the income scale and played to their racial and cultural animosity. No particular competence is needed to do that. For the first time in our modern history, that tactic worked with a large enough share of voters to put a true demagogue in the WH.
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

kindaskolarly wrote:For more than two years, the United States and the world have had two competing narratives...
"An elected president of the United States was a Russian agent whom the Kremlin helped elect."

"Senior officials of the Justice Department, FBI, CIA, and other national intelligence organizations had repeatedly lied under oath, misinformed federal officials, and meddled in partisan political matters illegally and unconstitutionally and had effectively tried to influence the outcome of a presidential election, and then undo its result by falsely propagating the first narrative."
I was struck by the false dichotomy. We know the Kremlin tried to help elect Dear Leader. We know that Dear Leader behaves like someone with something to hide. But what he has to hide may not be a criminal conspiracy with the Russians. He may be a Russian stooge without being a Russian agent.

Similarly, there has been some questionable judgment by the law enforcement officials, and even some lies (but not many) but the notion of a conspiracy to undo the election is not tenable. The usual suspects have been vilified for normal behavior, such as being married to a Democrat, while their suspicions about coordination with Russia have largely been confirmed. The idea that they made it all up is not even remotely sustainable by the evidence.
LanDroid wrote:We should know which one of these scenarios is correct in a few weeks or months.
Well, no. What we seem to be getting is a muddle. Dear Leader has long experience assigning the role of the heavy to underlings without saying anything that can get him nailed for conspiracy. He is a crook, not to mention a cheat, liar and racist, but he has made a career of lurking in the shadows, seizing opportunities that those with scruples would not, hiring people who will do his dirty work without explicit directions, etc. We all know the type.

His defense about all the lies he has told is basically "Well, you knew what kind of guy I am, so what's the surprise that I lied to you?" The speech to CPAC was particularly revealing. "They make such a big thing out of every little thing I have done." Little things like lying to Congress and the public about business deals in Russia, threatening ladies with stories they want to sell, hiring people to run the campaign who are on the hook to Moscow for big money, directing false response about the Trump Tower meeting, trying to influence testimony and obstruct justice, and on and on. Every little thing.
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

vizitelly wrote:As somebody living in England the difficulty most people here have is in understanding why trump still has the support he does, when it is blatantly obvious that he is a liar, crook and racist. All of these things have been recorded, documented and corroborated, time and again.
I think it is a very interesting question. As usual, my main answer is that more than one big thing is going on. It helps to realize there are three key constituencies in the Trump constituency. The first two might be thought of as “Fox News America” (even though mostly they don’t actually watch Fox) and certainly “Red State” America. They are his base.

Those who backed him in the primaries, the MAGA people, come from a long tradition in America of people who resent being told what they “should” do, told to sacrifice their interests for moral issues. Even if they are not white nationalists or resentful of unskilled immigrants, they are likely to have a “them” and “us” mentality about race. They often feel that liberals, who defend flag burning and Muslims, are clueless about the security needs of the U.S., not to mention the security needs of citizens who keep guns. And they are very sensitive to being considered “deplorables” for not bowing to political correctness and globalizers.

The second group might be called “Evangelical Christians” or at least traditionalists. Usually they did not back Trump in the primaries but were convinced they did not like Democrats and were thrilled by the choice of Mike Pence and the promise to let them choose the Supreme Court nominees. They are fired up against abortion, and scared about gay marriage (that they will be required to respect gay marriage just as people were required to respect the civil rights of African-Americans – you can see the kinship between the two groups).

But these two groups have not been enough to put Republicans in national office since the 2008 crisis, especially with black turnout very high when Obama was on the ballot. What changed was the third group. These are people whose communities were devastated by imports during the years of the Great Recession (and by automation, but that is not so easy to confront with policy). At least half of them would prefer Bernie Sanders over Trump, but they were not too picky about which of the protest votes they lined up for. They were concentrated in states that were “Purple”, or about balanced between typically Republican and typically Democrat. So Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin swung to Trump by thin majorities (razor thin in the last two), and Pennsylvania may be in this category as well. This so-called “Blue Wall” crumbling was what handed Trump a win despite losing the popular vote by a significant margin.

The third group has not stuck by Trump, nor should they have been expected to. Outside West Virginia, which depends on coal and leans rather MAGA, they have been disappointed. No infrastructure building, trade achievements modest or negative, and a tax bill that showed where Trump’s and the Republican Party’s loyalties lie. In the midterms they were not a force, and the Democrats again carried the popular vote heavily.

The real swing in 2018 was in the suburbs, especially coastal suburbs where the tax bill went after revenue from the State and Local Tax exemption in high-tax states. Highly educated voters, especially women, reacted with real fear and loathing to the Trump win and its consequences. The Kavanaugh debacle may have solidified some of the first two groups, but it alienated vast swaths of the cosmopolitan vote.

Those who see a great chance for the Republican Party to re-elect Trump in 2020 because the economy is in good shape are likely to be disappointed. Despite the advantage of the Electoral College, which has favored Republicans for a while now and even more so now, he will definitely lose the popular vote again and probably the election. He just hasn’t delivered on the hopes of his swing voters, and either Biden or Sanders is likely to be able to capitalize. Maybe others as well, but I don’t think this is the year for other far left candidates without Sanders’ “street credibility”.

And there’s always the chance of him losing a primary challenge. Without a crowded field to divide those who loathe him, he could lose to a Romney or a Weld or to Nikki Haley, should she take my advice and decide to run (she won’t – she is young enough to wait for 2024 to avoid being seen as traitor to the MAGA’s).
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

Harry Marks wrote:
And there’s always the chance of him losing a primary challenge. Without a crowded field to divide those who loathe him, he could lose to a Romney or a Weld or to Nikki Haley, should she take my advice and decide to run (she won’t – she is young enough to wait for 2024 to avoid being seen as traitor to the MAGA’s).
Maryland's Larry Hogan, too. I feel it's going to be a gov or ex-gov who has the best chance to unseat Trump. Haley and Romney both qualify as well but probably will not run. With this much craven cowardice in the Republican party, it's unlikely a challenger would feel he/she has a chance to get any support.

Why only Jay Inslee of Washington as a governor running for the Democrats? Do governors have better things to do, like running states? Anyway, Inslee has beaucoup experience at many levels of government, and with his commitment to attacking climate change, he's my pick so far. Senators, House members, your time has passed!
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

I am very interested in Inslee, but also in Hickenlooper. His record on the environment is not perfect, but I understand he made the drillers cap their methane emissions, which is actually a big deal. I may end up getting behind Biden, though. No sense running away from a majority, I always say.
vizitelly
Finally Comfortable
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:13 am
5
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

It does seem that Trump is completely off the rails and, bizarrely, the Republican Party, after a few attempts in the early days of his Presidency at trying to get him back on, have completely abandoned any semblance of legal or administrative oversight. I am aware that may be a very European view and that US politics have different procedural emphasis, but the perspective applied from European history - which has a dark shadow - is that behind the bluster and blather and deflection there is a serious attempt to usurp the democratic process; this is evidenced by the deliberate stripping out of the administrative mechanism which is the basis of all open government.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

Yes, it's depressing to see such an unraveling. And the worry of having 6 more years of the Donald is a real one. The Dems are investigating the heck out of him, as indeed they must, after two years of zero congressional oversight. But Trump's people will see this as persecution, Trump will play that to the hilt, the Dems may nominate someone to whom the socialist label will stick, and enough moderate voters may cast votes against that party's nominee to keep Trump where he is. Oh, this also assumes that Mueller's and the NY Southern District's investigations don't find illegalities that are serious enough to impeach him. The Democrats might try anyway.
vizitelly
Finally Comfortable
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:13 am
5
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

So what you mean is : they are going to have to drag him out in chains and handcuffs ?
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: The Coup against Donald Trump

Unread post

vizitelly wrote:So what you mean is : they are going to have to drag him out in chains and handcuffs ?
According to Michael Cohen, if he does lose in 2020, he will barricade himself inside the WH and refuse to come out!
Post Reply

Return to “Current Events & History”