Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:39 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil? 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genius


Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 774
Thanks: 88
Thanked: 124 times in 111 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?

In Chrestianity, which I think was the original Gnostic Christianity before Christianity took it over and changed the name to Christianity, Jesus was considered a good man archetype. Jesus’ God was also thought of as a good God.

Christianity and Islam created a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah with an immoral Original Sin concept, as well as other immoral doctrines, --- that the Jewish myth never had. Jews read an Original Virtue into Eden. Not a fall.

Christianity created and adopted the Trinity concept many years after Jesus died. Christianity kowtowed to Constantine and tied a reasonably good Jesus to a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah.

Was it a good idea to tie a good Jesus to an evil Yahweh/Allah?

Regards
DL



Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:42 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Reading is Sexy

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1978
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 70
Thanked: 735 times in 566 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
John 1: 1-2

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
John 1: 14

I and the Father are one.
John 10:30

...the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
John 10:30

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
John 14:9 - 11

As those verses indicate, I believe you're making a mistake in attempting to separate Jesus from Yahweh and the Trinity. Jesus was inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning, therefore Jesus is guilty of many horrendous crimes such as the near extinction genocide known as Noah's Ark. I think Islam considers Allah to be the same Deity as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, but I've lost track of the details and could be wrong.

So no, since they all committed abhorrent crimes as mentioned above, there is no "good" part of any of those Deities.

Kinda-sorta related, but not really, just for fun: From the Beginning by ELP


_________________
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genius


Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 774
Thanks: 88
Thanked: 124 times in 111 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
LanDroid wrote:
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
John 1: 1-2

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
John 1: 14

I and the Father are one.
John 10:30

...the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
John 10:30

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
John 14:9 - 11

As those verses indicate, I believe you're making a mistake in attempting to separate Jesus from Yahweh and the Trinity. Jesus was inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning, therefore Jesus is guilty of many horrendous crimes such as the near extinction genocide known as Noah's Ark. I think Islam considers Allah to be the same Deity as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, but I've lost track of the details and could be wrong.

So no, since they all committed abhorrent crimes as mentioned above, there is no "good" part of any of those Deities.

Kinda-sorta related, but not really, just for fun: From the Beginning by ELP


You might be right but Bishop Spong kind of kills the notion of what your quotes indicate and I trust his judgement more than the plagiarized bible.

I found this whole link interesting but if your time is short, start this up at the 15 min. mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmKEH9jnu8

Regards
DL



Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:29 am
Profile Email
Official Newbie!


Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil? Audacity Find My iPhone Origin

In Chrestianity, which I think was the original Gnostic Christianity before Christianity took it over and changed the name to Christianity, Jesus was considered a good man archetype. Jesus’ God was also thought of as a good God.

Christianity and Islam created a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah with an immoral Original Sin concept, as well as other immoral doctrines, --- that the Jewish myth never had. Jews read an Original Virtue into Eden. Not a fall.

Christianity created and adopted the Trinity concept many years after Jesus died. Christianity kowtowed to Constantine and tied a reasonably good Jesus to a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah.

Was it a good idea to tie a good Jesus to an evil Yahweh/Allah?

Regards
DL



I don't think that this is true , becuase a human can be a good



Last edited by kamel2500 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:29 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5463
Thanks: 1295
Thanked: 882 times in 759 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
Lanroid wrote:
Quote:
Jesus was inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning, therefore Jesus is guilty of many horrendous crimes such as the near extinction genocide known as Noah's Ark.


I'm pretty certain the Bible portrays a progressive perceptual understanding of man's attempt to understand the nature of a personal god.

You're doing what is typical of many biblical illiterate atheists - conflating "them" all.



Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genius


Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 774
Thanks: 88
Thanked: 124 times in 111 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
kamel2500 wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil? Audacity Find My iPhone Origin

In Chrestianity, which I think was the original Gnostic Christianity before Christianity took it over and changed the name to Christianity, Jesus was considered a good man archetype. Jesus’ God was also thought of as a good God.

Christianity and Islam created a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah with an immoral Original Sin concept, as well as other immoral doctrines, --- that the Jewish myth never had. Jews read an Original Virtue into Eden. Not a fall.

Christianity created and adopted the Trinity concept many years after Jesus died. Christianity kowtowed to Constantine and tied a reasonably good Jesus to a demonstrably evil Yahweh/Allah.

Was it a good idea to tie a good Jesus to an evil Yahweh/Allah?

Regards
DL



I don't think that this is true , becuase a human can be a good


A human can also be an evil. I offer Hitler as an example.

I don't know exactly what you do not believe true as you did not offer to or correct me in amy way.

Biblically speaking, that is chastisement without correction which to it is you showing the hate in your heart for your fellow man.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViMF510wqWA

Regards
DL



Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:10 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Reading is Sexy

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1978
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 70
Thanked: 735 times in 566 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
ant wrote:
LanDroid wrote:
Quote:
Jesus was inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning, therefore Jesus is guilty of many horrendous crimes such as the near extinction genocide known as Noah's Ark.

I'm pretty certain the Bible portrays a progressive perceptual understanding of man's attempt to understand the nature of a personal god.
You're doing what is typical of many biblical illiterate atheists - conflating "them" all.

Sure it's possible to view the Bible as a progressive understanding, but that does not alter the Dogma that the Eternal Triune Deity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has not changed from the beginning. I quoted other verses that show, as stated before, "I believe you're making a mistake in attempting to separate Jesus from Yahweh and the Trinity." There's nothing to conflate, They have always been One. Jesus was present and made the decision when God stripped Saul of his Kingship because, although Saul "put to death men and women, children and infants, camels and donkeys" as God instructed, he disobeyed by saving a few of the best sheep and cattle. As the Word of the Lord came to Samuel, Jesus asked the infamous question in 1 Samuel 15 “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”


_________________
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:06 pm
Profile
Years of membership
Internet Sage

Silver Contributor

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 338
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 158
Thanked: 150 times in 119 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
LanDroid wrote:
As the Word of the Lord came to Samuel, Jesus asked the infamous question in 1 Samuel 15 “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”


Jesus did what when?


_________________
"The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
— Dorothy Parker


Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:20 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Reading is Sexy

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1978
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 70
Thanked: 735 times in 566 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
I should have picked a simpler example, basic point is Jesus is part of the Triune Deity that committed or demanded many of the atrocities described in the Old Testament. The title of this thread is accurate (minus the question mark).


_________________
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


The following user would like to thank LanDroid for this post:
Gnostic Bishop
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:58 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5463
Thanks: 1295
Thanked: 882 times in 759 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
LanDroid wrote:
I should have picked a simpler example, basic point is Jesus is part of the Triune Deity that committed or demanded many of the atrocities described in the Old Testament. The title of this thread is accurate (minus the question mark).



The doctrine of the trinity was not mentioned or developed (explicitly) until the new testament. And even at that point the discussion was fluid and has been pondered and developed since.

You need to stop pretending you are theologically familiar with concepts you obviously have a static and shallow understanding of.

Your "intellectual" behavior on topics like this is typical of atheistic biblical literalists. They have a tendency to interpret the bible more literally than religious fundamentalists
Stop.



Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:28 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Reading is Sexy

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1978
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 70
Thanked: 735 times in 566 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
When the doctrine of Trinity was developed is much less important here than what it actually means.
Quote:
The dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

...The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes: "There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Quote:
Each of the three persons in the godhead possesses the same eternal and infinite divine nature; thus, they are the one, true God in essence or nature, not “three Gods.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... he-trinity


_________________
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
pets endangered by possible book avalanche

BookTalk.org Moderator
Platinum Contributor

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4316
Location: NC
Thanks: 1795
Thanked: 1865 times in 1407 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
newadvent wrote:
Each of the three persons in the godhead possesses the same eternal and infinite divine nature; thus, they are the one, true God in essence or nature, not “three Gods.”

As a Catholic ("fallen" though I may be), I have heard a lot about the trinity since I was very young, and it has never made sense. Not because it is theologically complex, but because it is nonsensical. Obviously Thomas Aquinas spent a lot of time coming up with the concept in order to provide some logical consistency to a set of beliefs that are not always very coherent. Since "God" is arguably a manmade concept, not grounded in science or anything that can be studied objectively, there is very little agreement on the particulars by Christians and Jews and Muslims. One of our Young Earth Creationist forum members some years ago stated his belief that Catholics aren't really Christians. Some religions espouse that baptism is necessary for salvation, others say not. Anabaptists say that baptism is valid only when the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ and wants to be baptized. Other faiths practice infant baptism. From a nonbeliever's perspective, these theological differences are easy to explain. It's all made up.

Consider the following passage from the Catholic article that Landroid posted:

Quote:
. . . We should take note of the distinction between the "generative" procession that consititutes the Son, and the "spirative" procession that constitutes the Holy Spirit. As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, and Scripture reveals, the Son is uniquely "begotten" of the Father (cf. John 3:16; 1:18). He is also said to proceed from the Father as "the Word" in John 1:1. This "generative" procession is one of "begetting," but not in the same way a dog "begets" a dog, or a human being "begets" a human being. This is an intellectual "begetting," and fittingly so, as a "word" proceeds from the knower while, at the same time remaining in the knower. Thus, this procession or begetting of the Son occurs within the inner life of God. There are not "two beings" involved; rather, two persons relationally distinct, while ever-remaining one in being. . . .

Sorry, this is Deepak Chopra level of nonsense. Even believers can't agree on any of the particulars. And only a true believer, through sheer motivation to rationalize irrational beliefs, can read the preceding passage and nod his head, pretending to understand the so-called "doctrine of the trinity." Then again, I'm no "theologian."


_________________
-Geo
Question everything


The following user would like to thank geo for this post:
Gnostic Bishop
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:44 am
Profile
Years of membership
Internet Sage

Silver Contributor

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 338
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 158
Thanked: 150 times in 119 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil?
.
.
Difficult discussion and getting heated. Luckily, I'm an atheist and have no opinion. This atheism thing is awesome.


_________________
"The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
— Dorothy Parker


Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Reading is Sexy

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1978
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 70
Thanked: 735 times in 566 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Jesus = good. Yahweh/Allah = evil. Trinity = evil
Well Geo, let's leave those Deepak Chopra details of the Trinity to the Jesuits. :x

One of the main points in this thread is the "Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever." This is not a fundamentalist belief, it is widely accepted. The problem is these believers don't recognize the implication that Jesus was present for all of the horrific acts of the Old Testament.

A minority of Christians do not believe this. As I understand it they are essentially claiming Yahweh is dead and the new theology of Jesus is ascendant. There are several problems with this.
  • The Trinity doctrine exists, how do you deal with that? Claim the Father and the Holy Spirit existed from the beginning, but when the Son was incarnated, the Father died? Now only Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist? Very strange.
  • “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17
    According to Jesus, the laws of the Old Testament have not changed.
  • Since eternal Truth is unchanging, how do you explain the purported radical changes in morals between the Old & New Testaments?
  • Claiming human understanding of eternal Truth has evolved is not very satisfactory. The Divine Message has always been the same, but our understanding of it has improved over time? That's like claiming the message of Exodus 21: 23 - 25 in my sig file has been misinterpreted for thousands of years and, if properly understood, is exactly the same as the values in the Sermon on the Mount.
  • Many Christians believe there will be massive bloodbaths as the predictions in Revelations come true. The values of the Sermon on the Mount will disappear and the vengeance of Yahweh will return, reversing the arc of history, another break in eternal Truth.


_________________
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25


The following user would like to thank LanDroid for this post:
geo
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:45 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2018. All rights reserved.


seo for beginners