Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:29 am





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Gerald Massey 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5571
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2068
Thanked: 1982 times in 1510 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Gerald Massey
Flann 5 wrote:
provide the primary sources Massey allegedly cites

The thirty one page summary document in question is http://www.theosophical.ca/otherdocumen ... Massey.pdf

In considering a controversial author such as Massey, it is best not to rely on slanted distortions from church based heresy hunters. They have an agenda to claim that long debunked literal stories such as the miracles of Jesus actually happened, in defiance of the laws of physics. Anyone with such contempt for evidence can be expected to play fast and loose with material from those they wish to slander, and is not to be trusted without checking their facts.

And unsurprisingly, the mistakes by the Christians are bad. The above linked short document, which Flann5 cites as evidence that Massey did not use primary sources, says at the top of the first page "See "Natural Genesis." from the same author for original references".

Since Massey's work is more than a century old it is in the public domain. Natural Genesis (Part One) is available freely at http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/T ... l.%20I.pdf

The Table of Contents indicates the original ran to more than 500 pages. I have not read it, but skimming the link is instructive as most pages have footnotes to sources, often several.

So once again, the fundamentalist Christian claim that mythicism lacks sound method is exposed as hypocrisy, projecting their own lack of rigour onto real scholars.

This responds to appalling lies about Massey presented at a booktalk thread.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
FTL99
Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:55 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Nutty for Books


Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1581
Location: Dublin
Thanks: 832
Thanked: 704 times in 604 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Ireland (ie)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
Robert Tulip wrote:


Flann 5 wrote:
provide the primary sources Massey allegedly cites



The thirty one page summary document in question is http://www.theosophical.ca/otherdocumen ... Massey.pdf


Hi Robert. The request was to provide the citations from the primary sources Massey allegedly cites. Simply linking Massey's writings does not do this. You say there are sources cited in footnotes. Be specific in response to Holding's critique and give the citation from the primary source Massey is supposedly citing in each of the cases Holding raises.

Holding is quite correct that even atheist and fellow mythicist Richard Carrier criticises the claim that the Luxor images are what they are said by mythicists to represent i.e a pagan parallell from which Christianity allegedly borrowed.
http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/580

Robert Tulip wrote:
In considering a controversial author such as Massey, it is best not to rely on slanted distortions from church based heresy hunters. They have an agenda to claim that long debunked literal stories such as the miracles of Jesus actually happened, in defiance of the laws of physics. Anyone with such contempt for evidence can be expected to play fast and loose with material from those they wish to slander, and is not to be trusted without checking their facts.


Here you assert your apriori belief in philosophical naturalism as being fact. Presumably you are eternally existent and omniscient and can verify that nothing supernatural has ever happened in all that time anywhere. And God is subject to laws he created apparently?
And all this when even the enemies of Christ are on record as acknowledging that he worked miracles albeit it was claimed to be by the power of the devil according to them.
Everyone is free to believe what they choose however outlandish,but when claims are put in public forums you can expect criticism of them.

As far as I'm concerned people can judge for themselves whether or not Holding makes valid criticisms of Massey's writings and whether he suppports these in the various articles he also links. http://www.tektonics.org/lp/massjc.php
I think he does. We've been through all this before and hardcore mythicists will not be persuaded. Nonetheless I provide these articles to alert those unfamiliar with these things to their preposterous and unhistorical nature. I won't be wasting any more of my time on this subject of mythicist theories and claims which I've addressed a great deal here in the past.



Last edited by Flann 5 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:52 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5571
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2068
Thanked: 1982 times in 1510 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
I am not getting into a debate about JP Holding since I regard him as a moron.

I showed that his assertion of a lack of references is the easiest thing to refute.

The fact that flann and stahrwe failed to do such a simple search shows they are here to troll against evidence-based methods, not for mutual learning.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
FTL99, tat tvam asi
Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:30 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Nutty for Books


Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1581
Location: Dublin
Thanks: 832
Thanked: 704 times in 604 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Ireland (ie)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
Flann 5 wrote:
You say there are sources cited in footnotes. Be specific in response to Holding's critique and give the citation from the primary source Massey is supposedly citing in each of the cases Holding raises.

Robert Tulip wrote:
I showed that his assertion of a lack of references is the easiest thing to refute.

The fact that flann and stahrwe failed to do such a simple search shows they are here to troll against evidence-based methods, not for mutual learning.

What a cop out Robert. You have failed to specify a single primary source in support of Massey's claims which were challenged by Holding. Instead you resort to namecalling and a vague allusion to sources being included in the footnotes. Answer the questions with specific primary source citations or stop bluffing.

Let's remember that we are dealing with a theory that asserts that Jesus Christ did not exist historically,a claim that is regarded by the overwhelming majority of biblical scholars and historians as risible.

No wonder though when some sceptics feed themselves on a diet of Richard Carrier, Daniel Dennett, Dan Barker and Dawkins that eventually they believe that which they clearly desire to be true, however ridiculous. They call this farce critical thinking no less!

www.evidenceunseen.com/christ/was-chris ... gan-myths/
After this I leave you to your superior wisdom by which you will live or die ultimately should heaven forbid, Christianity be true.



Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:02 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5571
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2068
Thanked: 1982 times in 1510 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
Flann 5 wrote:
vague allusion to sources being included in the footnotes.


Mr Holding spectacularly failed to notice what Massey says about sources. In the short book that Holding says has no references, at the top of the first page Massey indicated where his references can be found. You can read it in the opening post here.

Such level of error is good grounds for suspicion of Holding's bona fides.

My link to sources in footnotes was not a "vague allusion" but rather a direct link. If you want to check any of Massey's claims read the links in the opening post of this thread. Comparative Religion is a massive field, not one that is simply refuted by calls to read the Bible.

Maybe Massey does get some things wrong. But don't rely on fundamentalist Christians for any critical analysis of such topics, since they are looking out to defend their completely wrong theories of history and protect their flock against facts.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:45 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Nutty for Books


Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1581
Location: Dublin
Thanks: 832
Thanked: 704 times in 604 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Ireland (ie)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
Robert Tulip wrote:
Mr Holding spectacularly failed to notice what Massey says about sources. In the short book that Holding says has no references, at the top of the first page Massey indicated where his references can be found. You can read it in the opening post here.


As far as I can see J.P.Holding did not say that Massey did not reference sources sometimes. The problem is that often these sources are invalid such as the Toledeth Jeshu for example as Holding demonstrates. Secondly he often does not provide sources for his claims and in particular primary sources which is what is required.

For example as Holding points out Massey claims various titles for Horus such as Good Shepherd,Lamb of God etc which you will find in Holding's critique. He says that the only sources he could find for these were esoteric sources. He then challenges Massey supporters to produce these alleged titles in the original contexts, that is the primary Egyptian sources.

Enough of the evasion Robert. Have a look at these titles Massey claims for Horus which Holding quotes him on and provide the primary sources for them in the ancient Egyptian texts.
You simply refuse to answer the challenge and think merely by saying that Massey provides some references and sources,(though he doesn't provide primary sources in the areas Holding challenges) you can evade specific questions and simply refuse to answer them.
You can fool yourself all you like but if you are not prepared to be specific and answer specific challenges and questions with references to primary sources, this conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.



Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:59 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5571
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2068
Thanked: 1982 times in 1510 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
We had a good booktalk discussion of Christ in Egypt by DM Murdock, which is a good source to assess the simplified Horus claims made in the zeitgeist movie. See also Murdock's Zeitgeist Sourcebook

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/z ... cebook.pdf

If you read Christ in Egypt, then I will discuss sources with you. You are approaching this from a very thin evidence base and weak method. Your critique of philosophical naturalism shows that you put tradition before logic.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
FTL99
Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:21 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Float like a butterfly, post like a bee!


Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 55
Thanks: 28
Thanked: 57 times in 30 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
The fact is that Gerald Massey was very heavily peer-reviewed by the top Egyptologists and other scholars of his day. Most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently.

Who Is Gerald Massey?


_________________
Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites


The following user would like to thank FTL99 for this post:
Robert Tulip, tat tvam asi, youkrst
Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:46 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reading Addict


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1367
Location: Florida
Thanks: 581
Thanked: 549 times in 411 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Gerald Massey
FTL99 wrote:
The fact is that Gerald Massey was very heavily peer-reviewed by the top Egyptologists and other scholars of his day. Most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently.

Who Is Gerald Massey?


Cricket's.......


_________________
YEC theory put to rest!!!

https://www.ex-christian.net/


The following user would like to thank tat tvam asi for this post:
Robert Tulip
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:52 pm
Profile Email
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

BookTalk.org Newsletter 

Announcements 

• Promote Your Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:33 pm

• Promote Your Non-Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 pm

• What's next on our Short Story menu?
Mon May 22, 2017 8:29 pm



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book

Featured Books

Books by New Authors


*

FACTS is a select group of active BookTalk.org members passionate about promoting Freethought, Atheism, Critical Thinking and Science.

Apply to join FACTS
See who else is in FACTS







BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2018. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank