We haven't had a good debate in a while. Who has an idea to get us fighting debating again?

Stahrwe, on whether or not we should raise a kid with religious vs atheistic? teachings. Wayne is a great proponent of the theistic viewpoint.

Who has raised a child as an atheist, and who has raised a kid as a theist? What are the results? We've had many years since atheism has been more widely accepted, and there should be some people who can contribute to the discussion.

Interbane wrote:Who has raised a child as an atheist, and who has raised a kid as a theist? What are the results?

I didn't raise my three kids as atheists (or theists). The subject of God just never came up much. Christmas was all about Santa Claus and presents. We didn't say grace at the table, although we would when we visited the grandparents.

Not surprisingly, none of my (three) children have turned religious. My son-in-law is not religious either, though his parents were. Not believing in God seems to be the default state for many households. I don't say that is good or bad, but I suspect it's true.

What are the results? My children are awesome. I'm proud of the way they all turned out. How did they not turn into murderers and rapists and thieves, I don't know.

I think the important debate is whether religion should be reformed or opposed. My view is that it is far better to work to reform religion to construct a version of faith that is compatible with reason.

Is it better to abandon religion entirely or recognise that it should remain central to human culture? I have no interest in debating with literal believers because they are generally stupid and wrong when the basis for their literal belief is put to the test of reason. Religious claims are metaphorical. Belief is more a matter of emotional comfort than rational philosophy.

So I prefer constructive conversation about how to reform religion, recognising that such discussion generates less popcorn heat than a fundy-atheist stoush. That is not to say that the hypothesis of a personal eternal entity outside our universe who intentionally governs human life can be disproved, but rather that belief in such a God is far better explained by the psychology of projection than by divine revelation from an actual entity.

The psychological and cultural reasons for belief are central to the sociology of myth, which is a key scholarly problem. Human evolution is far better served by building on the precedents of religious wisdom, seeing their claims as parables for real perceptions, than by arrogantly dismissing these traditions as the worthless product of false consciousness.

If you don’t need to grow spiritually. If you don’t feel the need to seek enlightenment, you can’t be interested.

If you are born with a burning desire for a deeper spiritual life, your soul is hungry and you can’t (not) search or stop searching. And the light comes from all directions!

My Mum was a spiritualist, interested in the phenomena, but not religious.

My husband of 54 years is an atheist and he is a wonderful man. I’m not so wonderful, and the spiritual seeking is like a wall between us but I can’t stop seeking. If I could say ok soddit, I’m not seeking any more, I would, but I’ve tried and I can’t because it is a hunger. It wouldn’t do for us both to be so heavenly minded that we’re no earthly good , now would it?

I've never understood this "spiritual" stuff so when I hear people talk about seeking spiritual fulfillment it confuses my mind. To me this simply means they are craving the chemical response they get when they experience deep awe or appreciation for something. I get the same sort of chemical reaction from my intense appreciation of music, art, nature and inspirational people. I experience the goosebumps, happy tears and overall bliss that religious people experience but without the metaphysical element.

I don’t think I call it ‘fulfillment’. It isn’t about getting a high. It’s about enlightenment. It’s wondering about what life is about.....seeking meaning?

If we are immortal souls? If we reincarnate and keep coming back until we are good enough to move on to a higher state of being. If there is such a thing as karma.

It is interesting to read the mystics of all religious traditions because they all describe the same sort of experience.

It just seems to be the most important question to me because all the pain and suffering, all the grief, can’t be for nothing.

So I continue to research, which consists of reading the writings of mystics and philosophers and meditation and, I suppose, prayer. Prayer which doesn’t mean petitioning the almighty and talking to God.....but listening and perceiving on a different level. If we have a sixth sense or are telepathic naturally, it seems a shame not to use or develop it.

It’s not about getting a buzz, but about finding peace.

I don’t think I call it ‘fulfillment’. It isn’t about getting a high. It’s about enlightenment. It’s wondering about what life is about.....seeking meaning?

I don't personally understand "enlightenment." When I learn about the world I consider it education not enlightenment. And I also don't understand what could be meant by "what life is about" or what "meaning" means. Life isn't about anything. Life doesn't have meaning. For meaning to exist there has to be a conscious being that assigned that meaning. So the meaning of life is whatever each of us assigns to our life. There is no meaning outside of us as individuals.

I'm assuming you think there is a meaning to life that comes from outside of our brains. A meaning that existed before each of us was born and a meaning that will persist after each of us die. To me this is senseless.

If we are immortal souls?

I want evidence for immortality before I will consider it. At this point there doesn't seem to be any evidence so to me it is simply wishful thinking. Is an oak tree immortal? How about a kangaroo? Why should we be any different than other lifeforms? I don't see any reason to believe we are.

If we reincarnate and keep coming back until we are good enough to move on to a higher state of being.

There just isn't any evidence for this. But there is a ton of evidence that mankind has made up myths as long as we have been able to do so. So which is more likely? Humans created the myth of reincarnation or it is actually a real thing? Again, there is no evidence.

If there is such a thing as karma.

I see good people suffering horribly and bad people living happily. I see no evidence for karma. Do you?

It is interesting to read the mystics of all religious traditions because they all describe the same sort of experience.

They all make up answers to unanswerable questions.

It just seems to be the most important question to me because all the pain and suffering, all the grief, can’t be for nothing.

Why not? Who says? Living creatures compete for limited resources and in the process of competing there is usually a winner and a loser. The pain and suffering of the loser isn't for nothing. It is for the gain of the winner. Life goes on due to the struggle between living creatures. I agree... it sucks.

So I continue to research, which consists of reading the writings of mystics and philosophers and meditation and, I suppose, prayer.

While you read the writings of mystics and philosophers why not toss a science book in the mix? There are people out there who have devoted their lives to understanding how the natural world works and they are called scientists. I'm not convinced you have a lot to gain by reading what the mystics thought.

Prayer which doesn’t mean petitioning the almighty and talking to God.....but listening and perceiving on a different level.

Prayer has always appeared to be a one-way discussion to me. I have prayed and then listened. The silence was deafening. If you hear a response I posit that the response is your imagination and wishful thinking.

If we have a sixth sense or are telepathic naturally, it seems a shame not to use or develop it.

The key word is "if" and I don't think we have such an ability. So developing an ability that we don't even posses seems like an impossible task.

It’s not about getting a buzz, but about finding peace.

I hear you. But I do think you're getting a bit of a buzz.

Life doesn't have meaning. For meaning to exist there has to be a conscious being that assigned that meaning.

This is absolutely not true. We are conditioned to think of God as personified.... The Creator. But what if the meaning is within us? Another level of existence as the Buddhists teach.

And ..... as you well know.... I do read science books now and again. I have grown to admire Richard Dawkins enormously. Carl Sagan also. They are both excellent at teaching about the mechanics of life and how we function. I can’t help being more interested in the ‘why’ than the ‘how’ life works. You say so confidently that life has no meaning and you can’t know that.....that is your opinion only.