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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways? 
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Post How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL



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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
You should be able to answer your own question because you uphold Jesus as a "good" Deity. However as I argued in another thread, Jesus has been inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning of time. As an incarnate manifestation of Yahweh, the Eternal Jesus is guilty of innumerable war crimes required in the Bible such as "Leave nothing alive that breathes." That includes killing all men, women, children, livestock, and even vermin. See my signature quote for more evidence. You waive your hands about Bishop Spong and a "plagiarized Bible" whatever that is, but all the complaints you lodge against Christian, Jewish, and Islamic Theists apply equally to your Deity. (Unless you're claiming Jesus was non-eternal, and fully human?) Christians, Jews, and and Muslims justify the morality of their God in the same way you justify the crimes of your Gnostic Deity; so examine your rationalizations and answer your own questions.

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Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love.

That is quite revealing in an unintentional way...

As to your final question, given the crimes documented in the Bible and most all religious texts, obviously morality cannot depend on inscrutable demands from any Deity. Morality must be based on rational laws, which are a rarity on this planet, and guidelines such as the golden rule.


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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

BT discussed a book by Robert Wright called The Evolution of God some years ago. Wright's main premise, valuable to keep in mind, was that religions aren't in all ways what their scriptures and prominent spokesmen say they are. You have to note the situation "on the ground." What do the adherents really believe, how do they act? It isn't greatly important that scripture displays a primitive, jealous, and vindictive God if the believers aren't seeing their own Christian God in those terms. The Bible, in both the OT and NT, gives options for believers, so that they can go with the "loving" face of God if they choose to. I know it drives some people nuts that Christians don't come right out and repudiate Yahweh. Instead, they ignore him, which seems to be the basis for your complaint. But as you note, tribalism makes it difficult to perform an act that would be felt and seen as disloyal to the tribe (we are all tribal to a degree). So these Christians maintain a "big tent" version of their faith in which they agree to co-exist even with the minority that bases its behavior on the ancient God of the Israelites.

To answer your question, many Christians (and Muslims and Jews) have already broken "Satan's" hold on them. The compromise they've made may not sit well with those who demand consistency.



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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
LanDroid wrote:
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You should be able to answer your own question because you uphold Jesus as a "good" Deity.


This is not accurate. Jesus, in the way I use his teachings, is strictly a man. Not a deity.

Quote:
However as I argued in another thread, Jesus has been inextricably bound with Yahweh from the beginning of time. As an incarnate manifestation of Yahweh, the Eternal Jesus is guilty of innumerable war crimes required in the Bible such as "Leave nothing alive that breathes." That includes killing all men, women, children, livestock, and even vermin. See my signature quote for more evidence. You waive your hands about Bishop Spong and a "plagiarized Bible" whatever that is, but all the complaints you lodge against Christian, Jewish, and Islamic Theists apply equally to your Deity. (Unless you're claiming Jesus was non-eternal, and fully human?) Christians, Jews, and and Muslims justify the morality of their God in the same way you justify the crimes of your Gnostic Deity; so examine your rationalizations and answer your own questions.


True. Except again, I have no belief in a deity. Gnostic Christianity is more like Buddhism in this sense and we seek wisdom, not some fictitious God.

Quote:
Quote:
Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love.

That is quite revealing in an unintentional way...


That was intentional.

I see it as a fact. What do you see?

Quote:
As to your final question, given the crimes documented in the Bible and most all religious texts, obviously morality cannot depend on inscrutable demands from any Deity. Morality must be based on rational laws, which are a rarity on this planet, and guidelines such as the golden rule.



Christianity says the same thing but their view is nore to do unto others even if you would not want it done to you.

Note their homophobia and misogyny.

Secular laws that came from the Golden Rules are way superior to what Christianity and other religions have developed.

They like to stone people for all kinds of sins that are short of killing. So much for their eye for an eye.

Regards
DL



Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:15 pm
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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
DWill wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

BT discussed a book by Robert Wright called The Evolution of God some years ago. Wright's main premise, valuable to keep in mind, was that religions aren't in all ways what their scriptures and prominent spokesmen say they are. You have to note the situation "on the ground." What do the adherents really believe, how do they act? It isn't greatly important that scripture displays a primitive, jealous, and vindictive God if the believers aren't seeing their own Christian God in those terms. The Bible, in both the OT and NT, gives options for believers, so that they can go with the "loving" face of God if they choose to. I know it drives some people nuts that Christians don't come right out and repudiate Yahweh. Instead, they ignore him, which seems to be the basis for your complaint. But as you note, tribalism makes it difficult to perform an act that would be felt and seen as disloyal to the tribe (we are all tribal to a degree). So these Christians maintain a "big tent" version of their faith in which they agree to co-exist even with the minority that bases its behavior on the ancient God of the Israelites.

To answer your question, many Christians (and Muslims and Jews) have already broken "Satan's" hold on them. The compromise they've made may not sit well with those who demand consistency.


You are likely right on most of your points but not on religionists breaking their hold from Satan.

All who fly the cross have to buy into the substitutionary punishment of Jesus, an immoral tenant, and all who fly the start and crescent have to buy into the garbage moral tenets spoken of in this link on Muslims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drJCC2XXMBo

Regards
DL



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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
God was not and is not immoral. His ways are higher than our ways. God has a much higher purpose for what He does than we could ever know.

Here is an interesting link that describes hagiographic hyperbole:

http://religionnews.com/2015/01/12/god- ... ide-bible/



Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm
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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Jan_wow wrote:
God was not and is not immoral. His ways are higher than our ways. God has a much higher purpose for what He does than we could ever know. Here is an interesting link that describes hagiographic hyperbole: http://religionnews.com/2015/01/12/god- ... ide-bible/


Hello Jan, welcome to Booktalk. I have read the linked article on religious exaggeration. Thank you for sharing it. Unfortunately, it does not provide an accurate account. I also attend a weekly Bible Study group, and we have recently worked through Judges and 1 Samuel, books where the genocidal theory of God is most strongly developed. Although other members of our study group are moderately conservative, we were all shocked by the language in these books, and by the theological contortions used to explain and justify the morality of Samuel.

For example, Samuel explains at 1 Sam 15 that the sin of Saul was his failure to be thorough enough in performance of the genocide instructed by God, by failing to extend the slaughter to all their chattels. There is no “hagiographic hyperbole” happening here, since the Bible text is very clear and blunt.

The only way we could reconcile this genocidal morality from Samuel, in our discussion, was via the two covenant theory, that the Jewish covenant had to prepare the ground in Israel to enable the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is like your "higher purpose" theory, which Isaiah explains at Isa 55:8, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD". I personally agree with that theory, but in quite a different way from conventional theology.

It seems this first covenant in the Bible, including the whole Old Testament from covenants of Noah, Moses, etc, established a strong theory of hierarchical patriarchal monotheism as a basis for Yahwism to support conventional social structures and national security. This value system from the Old Testament remains very formative for conventional modern Christianity. The Gospels, by contrast, present a new covenant, shifting from the Mosaic revenge covenant to a focus on forgiveness and mercy and love, in ways that conservative people often find less appealing.

Much of Christian faith, especially in settler societies like the USA, South Africa and Australia, finds the conquest narratives more morally central than the messianic transformation vision in the new covenant of Jesus Christ. That continuity with the old morality of genocide and slavery seems helpful to explain why Roy Moore is so popular with his implicit subconscious Ten Commandment theory that to be a person you must be a man who owns property.


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Post Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
Quote:
“What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”
1 Samuel 15:14


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Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:19 am
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